Batman >> View Post
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Post By
CensusTaker

In Reply To
Sprtan

Subj: Im gonna push the limit.
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 07:41:03 pm EST
Reply Subj: Re: Treading very close to a
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:07:53 am EST

Previous Post

Thank you for the heads up on the "Battle Board". I was not/am not familiar with that one.

> > The question is, given how the D.C. Universe tends to rank fighters based upon martial arts prowess, could a fighter of Shiva's class beat a non Venom infused Bane?
>
> IMHO, yes.

Would be an interesting battle nonetheless. I am operating on the premise that he is "fast enough" to make contact with her and once that occurred, I would suspect advantage Bane.
>
> > Intuitively, it would stand to reason that despite Shiva's abilities, Bane's superior size, strength (and formidable fighting skills) would make quick work of Shiva.
>
> Not really, because you can't consider his attributes without considering hers too... no not THOSE attributes, her fighting attributes... honestly, mind in the gutter some people... \:\)

Of course. 8\-\)
>
> In comics where we accept that Robin can take down three thugs all massing more than twice what he does EACH in less time than it takes to read this, you learn not to judge by size or reach.

Good point and perspective in terms of looking at this. In that regard, I have noticed that Robin consistently gets "handled" when he runs up against other highly skilled fighters that are of signficant size difference than he is. For that matter, so does Nightwing (please see Knighfall/KnightQuest/etc. when fighting against Bane).
>
> >The key here being the fact that it is not just highly skilled Shiva taking some larger incapable or unskilled individual. Bane, although not a martial artist, is a skilled fighter.
>
> True, but he's a brawler, she's a swift killer.

As is he.
>
> > It would be the same as why you could take the Welterweight boxing champion of the world and pit him against a top ten ranked Heavyweight and the odds would be heavily in favor of the Heavyweight winning. An example would be Mike Tyson (in his prime) against literally any Welterweight or lighter from any era. Conventional boxing wisdom would have him destroying them.
>
> Not too sure about that, speed and dexterity can be just as important as brute strength.

True, but conventional sports wisdom typically favors the bigger fighter (all other things being relatively equal).
>
> > A recent post that mentioned that Black Canary (post recent training) may be a superior fighter than Batman. If it came down to it, one would think that Batman would make quick work of Black Canary (or Shiva for that matter) assuming all things equal (eg. no "sucker punch", handicaps, etc.) given that they are both highly skilled fighters.
>
> Wouldn't surprise me if he lost, Batman doesn't devote himself to just fighting though, he's busy keeping up to date with everything else that would be useful in his career. Black Canary (with respect) isn't much of a detective or a forensics person the way Batman is.
>
> >I have read the story arcs where Batman and Shiva have fought to virtual standstills and it vexes me to this day.
>
> Why?

Same reasons as above. She is a fighter. He is a fighter and tactician. I would have imagined him being prepared for how best to defeat her.
>
> > Just curious based upon the fact that the top fighters in the Batman D.C. Universe always seem to be ranked based upon where they stack up in the martial arts hierarchy versus whom would beat whom regardless of training discipline.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> I'm hoping for a lot less of an obsession with martial arts, they didn't interest me much reading Batman back when I was a kid (The ocassional reference to using judo or karate or taekwondo notwithstanding). He'd fight to win using all his skills, not just his hand to hand skills.

Agreed. Thanks for your insight.

> Thank you for the heads up on the "Battle Board". I was not/am not familiar with that one.
>
> > > The question is, given how the D.C. Universe tends to rank fighters based upon martial arts prowess, could a fighter of Shiva's class beat a non Venom infused Bane?
> >
> > IMHO, yes.

Yeah, I agree
>
> Would be an interesting battle nonetheless. I am operating on the premise that he is "fast enough" to make contact with her and once that occurred, I would suspect advantage Bane.
> >
> > > Intuitively, it would stand to reason that despite Shiva's abilities, Bane's superior size, strength (and formidable fighting skills) would make quick work of Shiva.
> >
> > Not really, because you can't consider his attributes without considering hers too... no not THOSE attributes, her fighting attributes... honestly, mind in the gutter some people... \:\)
>
> Of course. 8\-\)

Yeah, this aint one really good fighter, for her size, versus another really good fighter for his size, therefore big wins, we're talking about... This is Shiva... the BEST fighter in the world, regardless of size, versus someone who- when not venon infused- is probably in the top 100 largely because of his size. Thats the character. Okay, so it doesn't match up real world but... (see below)

> >
> > In comics where we accept that Robin can take down three thugs all massing more than twice what he does EACH in less time than it takes to read this, you learn not to judge by size or reach.
>
> Good point and perspective in terms of looking at this. In that regard, I have noticed that Robin consistently gets "handled" when he runs up against other highly skilled fighters that are of signficant size difference than he is. For that matter, so does Nightwing (please see Knighfall/KnightQuest/etc. when fighting against Bane).
> >

True. But Shiva would own Nightwing or Robin.

> > >The key here being the fact that it is not just highly skilled Shiva taking some larger incapable or unskilled individual. Bane, although not a martial artist, is a skilled fighter.
> >
> > True, but he's a brawler, she's a swift killer.
>
> As is he.

Not in the same class.
> >
> > > It would be the same as why you could take the Welterweight boxing champion of the world and pit him against a top ten ranked Heavyweight and the odds would be heavily in favor of the Heavyweight winning. An example would be Mike Tyson (in his prime) against literally any Welterweight or lighter from any era. Conventional boxing wisdom would have him destroying them.
> >
> > Not too sure about that, speed and dexterity can be just as important as brute strength.
>
> True, but conventional sports wisdom typically favors the bigger fighter (all other things being relatively equal).


Not a great example though, you're taking Tyson, someone who at his peak was arguable one of the three best heavey weights ever and pitting him against smaller opponants in his own sport. And what you say about conventional wisdom is true. But thats not whats happening Bane vs Shiva. Put Tyson or another top Heavyweight in an all-in freestyle fight with say a smaller but more well rounded opponant (different style) and maybe the result might be different.

However, the point of `martial arts' in comic books isn't the same as in real life, and that's something you're gonna have to accept. In the books, like the movies, martial artists can really do all those things that the relgions that developed martial arts, like Taoists, believe it can do: free you from pain, extend your life immesuarablly, make you invincible etc...

> >
> > > A recent post that mentioned that Black Canary (post recent training) may be a superior fighter than Batman. If it came down to it, one would think that Batman would make quick work of Black Canary (or Shiva for that matter) assuming all things equal (eg. no "sucker punch", handicaps, etc.) given that they are both highly skilled fighters.
> >
> > Wouldn't surprise me if he lost, Batman doesn't devote himself to just fighting though, he's busy keeping up to date with everything else that would be useful in his career. Black Canary (with respect) isn't much of a detective or a forensics person the way Batman is.

It all comes down to setting, motivation, prep-time. Suger Ray Robinson lost one or two fights in his prime, cause he was having a bad day, (so anyone can). If you put an unarmed, unarmoured Bats and Black Canary in a boxing ring, id say Bats, an Octagon, id say canary- more room, and she fights dirtier. The Street, either way. But give em their gear... bats everytime.


> >
> > >I have read the story arcs where Batman and Shiva have fought to virtual standstills and it vexes me to this day.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Same reasons as above. She is a fighter. He is a fighter and tactician. I would have imagined him being prepared for how best to defeat her.

I remeber in one story when he wasn't trying to defeat her, he was trying to see if he could beat her in a fair fight. Bats generally gets put in top ten fighters in the DCU, same class as the number 1 (Shiva), so the fight lasts... partially because Shiva loves fighting and normally lets fights last... but if Bats wanted to defeat her, quickly, he could. (using sonics or knock-out gas or the freakin batmobile).
> >
> > > Just curious based upon the fact that the top fighters in the Batman D.C. Universe always seem to be ranked based upon where they stack up in the martial arts hierarchy versus whom would beat whom regardless of training discipline.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?

I disagree, WildCat, Bronze Tiger, Cain and a few others normally get ranked up in the top-teir and their bigness as well as their skill is a part of the attributes that put them there.

> >
> > I'm hoping for a lot less of an obsession with martial arts, they didn't interest me much reading Batman back when I was a kid (The ocassional reference to using judo or karate or taekwondo notwithstanding). He'd fight to win using all his skills, not just his hand to hand skills.
>
> Agreed. Thanks for your insight.

Agreed.

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