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Post By
Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Solar Samurai

Subj: Re: The best answer
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 at 03:48:32 pm EST (Viewed 321 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The best answer
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:51:00 pm EST (Viewed 339 times)


I just want to precise : that's not how I would want the story to end, that's how the story seems to end.

I was trying to answer the question asked by Shawn, that's all.

Both Thomas Wayne and Mangrove Pierce look like red herrings to me (but people could easily prove me wrong and that Thomas Wayne or Mangrove Pierce is the true answer !)

Actually, many readers had correctly guessed very soon that "the Devil" was the mastermind and had talked about it on the internet many times. I did not believe them and tried my own theories (Hugo Strange, Doctor Death, the Monk, et cetera) ...

Nevertheless, now that the story is finished and that you read anew the whole run of Grant Morrison on Batman ... Well, it fits.

Read again Batman : Gothic and Arkham Asylum : a Serious House on Serious Earth, both by Grant Morrison, and it gives you even more clues leading to the same conclusion.

> Can I ask a question? When you say "the Devil," are you referring to the Biblical Devil, or some random other dimensional alien who calls himself a "Devil"?

Honestly, there is no definitive answer, you can read the story like you want.

I only say "the Devil" because it seems like the best answer left by the story.

Simon Hurt could be :

1) an avatar of "the Christian Devil" :
Thomas and Martha Wayne were cursed because of the Black Glove movie. That's why they were killed by Chill. The "birth of Batman" was a "collateral damage" of a curse by the Devil himself.
That's the "Miracle on Crime Alley" of Batman #679.

2) the universal tempter figure of many religions and mythologies :
Like DC's Endless, he would be the embodiment of an aspect of the universe. Like them, he can take human form once in a while.

3) the most devilish man on Earth :
Batman theorized that if there is an ultimate criminal mastermind somewhere, he will meet him someday and will have to fight him.
Thus, he has to prepare for the battle.

4) the "hole in things, the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning" :
Coming from the 5th Dimension, like Bat-Mite ...

Et cetera

Or, all this is apophenia, like the Joker said ...

> And I guess when I ask "you" I mean "Grant Morrison."
Exactly, not me, Grant Morrison.

> Because quite frankly, well, either way that idea sucks. I would hope Morrison was better than going that route in particular, but then again, after reading 682, I don't think I can trust Mr. Morrison at all. He broke my one longest standing rule of books / comics / TV / movies: never make it all out to have been a dream. What a pathetic, cheap, cop out and a waste of time for me as a reader. It's like making me spend the ten minutes to read it, and pay over 3 dollars, to get to the final page and realize that none of that stuff actually happened. I am not impressed. I thought you were better than that, Grant Morrison. I actually liked your earlier stuff. X Men, Doom Patrol, All Star Superman, that was all pretty cool stuff. And then you go and do this. How sad. So I guess what I'm saying, Grey Gargoyle, if you've made it this far (sorry for the rant), but I would imagine this lends a little more weight to your "Dr. Hurt is the Devil" theory. Because I think that idea is pretty crappy.

Well, I enjoyed the story.
Nevertheless, I can understand that you don't like the idea.

Indeed, it is only a theory and it can be false. (But, honestly, it is not only mine).

> So that stands to reason it follows Grant Morrison's modus operandi for his Batman run. It's so sad because until 682 I was cutting him a lot of slack. I thought it was all pretty cool, actually. But now he's on a short leash. If it wasn't for the upcoming short runs by Neil Gaiman and Denny O'Neil I really think this is a "droppable from pull list" offense.
> But on the bright side, Batman 682 had a pretty awesome "don't smoke pot" ad. "For a free unicorn fill out this form!" I think that one had a bit of an inverse effect. And I have to wonder what the composers of that ad were on when they got that idea ... and where i can get me some.
> > > I read it, but I can't figure it out. Sheesh! Can anyone help!?
> > > Thanks!
> >
> > There is no definitive answer and it was done on purpose by Grant Morrison.
> >
> > When I tried to guess the answer, I thought that all clues did lead to Hugo Strange but I was totally wrong.
> >
> > Nevertheless, now, what is the best answer left in my opinion ?
> >
> > Congratulations to all the readers that correctly guessed that Doctor Hurt is an avatar of the Devil.
> >
> > That's the best answer.
> > If you read anew all the Batman stories by Grant Morrison, everything leads to it.
> >
> > Simon Hurt himself provides the answer :
> > "If not Dad, then have you dared to consider the only alternative?"
> >
> > Bruce Wayne answered Mangrove Pierce.
> > Then, Simon Hurt said :
> > "No, I skinned Mangrove Pierce alive and wore him to Mayhew's party."
> > So, at the beginning of the Club of Heroes storyline, we actually see Simon Hurt with the face of Mangrove Pierce.
> >
> > So, have you dared to consider the only alternative ?
> > The Devil himself is the best answer.
> >
> > Clues :
> >
> > - "dare"/devil
> >
> > - Simon Hurt : "I am the hole in things, Bruce, the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning"
> >
> > - Batman : "In my attempts to see clearly in the deepest dark, in my efforts to go to the still eye of the storm of madness, did I open up myself to some pure source of evil? Did I finally read the limits of reason? And find the Devil waiting? And was that fear in his eyes?"
> >
> > - the Joker : "devil is double is deuce, my dear dr. and joker trumps deuce"
> >
> > - the Joker : "pleased to meet you" (Sympathy for the Devil by the Rolling Stones)
> >
> > - The monk works for a "dark master" (and there are pictures of demons on the wall in the background)
> >
> > - We see again the "third ghost of Batman" who believes that Simon Hurt is the Devil himself
> >
> > - The Black Glove movie : "The story is the Devil himself put a curse on the whole thing"
> >
> > - et cetera
> >
> > (or you can believe what Joker said about apophenia ... )
> >
> > Thus, here is what I missed and what was really obvious :
> >
> > Here is the "shocking revelation" that Grant Morrison was talking about : the Devil created Batman.
> >
> > Thus, Thomas Wayne may be the father of Bruce Wayne, but the Devil is "the father of Batman".
> >
> > If you read anew Batman RIP from the beginning and all the other Batman stories by Grant Morrison, everything fits.

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