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Post By
Fifthchild

In Reply To
Epyon

Subj: Re: My thoughts on this continuing debate
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:12:08 am EDT
Reply Subj: My thoughts on this continuing debate
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:45:39 am EDT

Previous Post

My understanding of the Extremis battle suit is that its undersheath connects directly with Tony's nervous system. That is why its reaction time is virtually instantaneous. The Hulkbuster armor was not designed that way. You argue that it could have been. Maybe it could have, I don't know. But there is evidence staring right at us in the face that it was not--as I said, Tony SAW the Hulk coming at him, WE saw the Hulk reflected in his helmet, and Tony had time to say "Oh Hell", and he still couldn't dodge? If the HB suit had the same reaction time as the Extremis suit, there is NO WAY the Hulk connects on that leap.

And yes, I know the Hulk can leap really fast. But he couldn't have been going too fast for IM to dodge, because of what I stated above. If you can be reflected in someone's faceplate, you are not traveling anywhere near supersonic speed, as some have argued the Hulk was.

I think these points have been discussed before, in great detail. I am sure you (and others) still disagree with me, and I am sure some (including me) disagree with you.

Personally, I think Greg Pak ignored/did not know about Iron Man's superhuman reflexes and spider-sense, and his rendition of Iron Man's fight with Hulk reflect that. I respect your opinion, but I think you are wrong.

> You wrote:
>
> "Why I think the HB armor is slow (I'm talking reaction time and agility, not flight speed)"
>
> Firstly I am talking all 3. Flight I will take it that you concede he is no slower. Reaction time - Tony is supposed to have increased reaction time now. As a matter of fact he would have to to have all these super-speed feets he seems to be racking up. Which means he still has that reaction time in the suit. Which seeing as the Extremis upgrade allows him to access and control all kinds of electronic gizmos (including presumably those he built with the intention of controlling them) he should be able to interface with the suit at those same near instantaneous speeds. Which leads us to 3 "agility" by which I presume you mean the ability to move quickly "on the ground". How does Iron Man move in his Extremis suit? Is it Tony's own muscles that make the legs bend at the knees aand his arm cock back to throw a punch? Or is it a case of the mechanics of the suit itself being controlled by Tony which do this and give him the strength to throw a punch as hard as the Thing or at least considerably harder than Tony Stark sans suit? And if that is the case is there any reason to believe that the suits mechanics are slower to react to the thoughts running through Tonys head than his limbs can to the nerve impulses travelling from his brain? Why is it any more difficult to imagine the same can't be said of the Hulk armor?
> Or does the Extremis armor slow Tony down also? Would he be even faster without it?
>
> > First, it was shown in WWH #1 to be slow. After Iron Man fired those incendiary missiles at Hulk, Iron Man flies over the burnt out area. He then SEES the Hulk leaping at him. The Hulk is moving slow enough that we SEE his reflection on Iron Man's face plate. Iron Man even has enough time to mutter, "Oh Hell." When wearing his sleek, Extremis armor, Iron Man has a reaction time of .004 seconds (I think DaveyM posted the scan in this thread). Think about that. A reaction time of .004 seconds. That is computer fast. If Iron Man had been wearing Extremis armor, he would have been gone before the Hulk got even close to him.
>
> I addressed this in the posts i linked to before. Please by all means read them.
> Here it is again
> http://www.comicboards.com/ironman/view.php?rpl=070719074602
>
> Second, wearing cumbersome armor makes it more difficult to make use of one's agility. I mean, if you're wearing form-fitting armor, don't you think it's easier to maneuver than if you're wearing a freaking tank? Just LOOK at the Hulkbuster armor. It looks like a box with limbs. Hard to imagine Iron Man dodging or weaving in that contraption.
>
> Again my sme objections as before. Peoples explanation as to why its slower "Just look at it". "Is it easier to maneuver in form-fitting armor than wearing a tank?" Shouldn't the Hulk be slow as hell cos he is a big lumbering giant? I think we can all agree that that is not the case when it comes to the case because unlike the "big lumbering iants we may be familiar with in our everyday lives" Hulk has a strength to bodyweight ratio that is close to infinite. The fact that he weighs a ton or so more than Ben Ulrich or whoever is more than offset by the fact that he is a million times stronger. I'm sure you can see how the same arguments apply to IM.
> At any rate my earlier posts on this are contained in this post.
> http://www.comicboards.com/ironman/view.php?rpl=070719072840
> hh
>
> hh

> My understanding of the Extremis battle suit is that its undersheath connects directly with Tony's nervous system. That is why its reaction time is virtually instantaneous. The Hulkbuster armor was not designed that way.
Says who?
> You argue that it could have been.

I argue that there is absolutely no reason why it could not have. My computer monitor connects directly to the wall electrical socket - and so does anything else I choose to plug in their. Hell one of Tonys abilities is upposed to be that he can do this with any piece of electronic equipment, satellites etc. Absurd to think that he can't do it with his own armor.

> Maybe it could have, I don't know. But there is evidence staring right at us in the face that it was not--as I said, Tony SAW the Hulk coming at him, WE saw the Hulk reflected in his helmet, and Tony had time to say "Oh Hell", and he still couldn't dodge?

I get sick of saying the same thing again but hell....
artistic license. Exactly you think it takes Tony a full second after seeing Hulk to be able to accomplish exactly nothing in terms of eeking a little more juice out of the rocketboots so that the Hulk misses him completely as opposed to the writer just had him say "Oh hell" cos it was kinda cool?
What could Extremis have done here that the Hulkbuster suit couldnt have? It is in the air. So is the Hulk. The only option is to accelerate in some direction, presumably in the same direction, presumably using the jetboots which seem to be his primary means of arborn propulsion. and yet Stark couldnt get them revving more power for a full second? Its that much slower? For no real reason?
Or.......is it that in a medium where people fighting exchange whole sentences in the time it takes to throw one punch the writer played a little fast and loose with the nature of sequential art to make the scene a little cooler.

> If the HB suit had the same reaction time as the Extremis suit, there is NO WAY the Hulk connects on that leap.

There is absolutely positively no reason why it should not have the same reaction time and nobody has come up with one yet.

> And yes, I know the Hulk can leap really fast. But he couldn't have been going too fast for IM to dodge, because of what I stated above. If you can be reflected in someone's faceplate, you are not traveling anywhere near supersonic speed, as some have argued the Hulk was.

Why not? Have the speeds of sound and light converged while I was away? Not that I am saying he was at supersonic speed. Its just that that argument does not follow.

> I think these points have been discussed before, in great detail. I am sure you (and others) still disagree with me, and I am sure some (including me) disagree with you.

Such is the nature of this place.

> Personally, I think Greg Pak ignored/did not know about Iron Man's superhuman reflexes and spider-sense, and his rendition of Iron Man's fight with Hulk reflect that. I respect your opinion, but I think you are wrong.

Fair enough. Its just a comic and despite the fact they are getting paid to come up with these stories I doubt any writer or editor has put as much thought into this issue as those of us participating in this thread.
hh

>
> > You wrote:
> >
> > "Why I think the HB armor is slow (I'm talking reaction time and agility, not flight speed)"
> >
> > Firstly I am talking all 3. Flight I will take it that you concede he is no slower. Reaction time - Tony is supposed to have increased reaction time now. As a matter of fact he would have to to have all these super-speed feets he seems to be racking up. Which means he still has that reaction time in the suit. Which seeing as the Extremis upgrade allows him to access and control all kinds of electronic gizmos (including presumably those he built with the intention of controlling them) he should be able to interface with the suit at those same near instantaneous speeds. Which leads us to 3 "agility" by which I presume you mean the ability to move quickly "on the ground". How does Iron Man move in his Extremis suit? Is it Tony's own muscles that make the legs bend at the knees aand his arm cock back to throw a punch? Or is it a case of the mechanics of the suit itself being controlled by Tony which do this and give him the strength to throw a punch as hard as the Thing or at least considerably harder than Tony Stark sans suit? And if that is the case is there any reason to believe that the suits mechanics are slower to react to the thoughts running through Tonys head than his limbs can to the nerve impulses travelling from his brain? Why is it any more difficult to imagine the same can't be said of the Hulk armor?
> > Or does the Extremis armor slow Tony down also? Would he be even faster without it?
> >
> > > First, it was shown in WWH #1 to be slow. After Iron Man fired those incendiary missiles at Hulk, Iron Man flies over the burnt out area. He then SEES the Hulk leaping at him. The Hulk is moving slow enough that we SEE his reflection on Iron Man's face plate. Iron Man even has enough time to mutter, "Oh Hell." When wearing his sleek, Extremis armor, Iron Man has a reaction time of .004 seconds (I think DaveyM posted the scan in this thread). Think about that. A reaction time of .004 seconds. That is computer fast. If Iron Man had been wearing Extremis armor, he would have been gone before the Hulk got even close to him.
> >
> > I addressed this in the posts i linked to before. Please by all means read them.
> > Here it is again
> > http://www.comicboards.com/ironman/view.php?rpl=070719074602
> >
> > Second, wearing cumbersome armor makes it more difficult to make use of one's agility. I mean, if you're wearing form-fitting armor, don't you think it's easier to maneuver than if you're wearing a freaking tank? Just LOOK at the Hulkbuster armor. It looks like a box with limbs. Hard to imagine Iron Man dodging or weaving in that contraption.
> >
> > Again my sme objections as before. Peoples explanation as to why its slower "Just look at it". "Is it easier to maneuver in form-fitting armor than wearing a tank?" Shouldn't the Hulk be slow as hell cos he is a big lumbering giant? I think we can all agree that that is not the case when it comes to the case because unlike the "big lumbering iants we may be familiar with in our everyday lives" Hulk has a strength to bodyweight ratio that is close to infinite. The fact that he weighs a ton or so more than Ben Ulrich or whoever is more than offset by the fact that he is a million times stronger. I'm sure you can see how the same arguments apply to IM.
> > At any rate my earlier posts on this are contained in this post.
> > http://www.comicboards.com/ironman/view.php?rpl=070719072840
> > hh
> >
> > hh


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