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Post By
Maestro

In Reply To
Jaysin1414

Subj: Re: OK, we just see this completely differently...
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:38:52 am EDT
Reply Subj: Re: OK, we just see this completely differently...
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 11:34:46 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > Even though the author of the Iron Man entry said that the HB wasn't the most powerful, you continue to point to the handbook...
> >
>
> Ok... wrong choice of words... physically strongest then. There, happy ? \:\-\)
>
Happier, yes. Thank you.
> > Even though the Extremis Iron Man armor is shown reacting in ten thousandths of a second, and NONE of the Buster suits operate at anything close to that speed, you continue to say they do...
> >
>
> No offense \:\-\) but here it is you are making me sound unreasonable (as in, I'm constantly pushing a point even though I'm clearly wrong), yet you have not chosen to respond to my proving that Extremis operates along the same principles as the HB has been shown to operate as well... rocket propelled movements. You can gloss over that part but this fact has hurt your argument quite a bit since rocket propelled movements logically will be much faster than that of a regular Armor's movements.
>
The scan you've posted backs your argument that the Extremis armor MIGHT have rocket assistance (though the supersonic punch back in IM #7 has no such artwork, though it's by the same artist). Could be that it does, could be that it doesn't. The FACT remains that the Extremis armor has shown reaction speed and reflexes that no other armor has. You can try to argue it but the FACTS are indisputable. Spider-man is 40 times faster than a normal man (according to the handbooks)...Iron Man dodged ALL of Spider-Man's punches in IM #15 (I think that's the number, could be wrong.) E-IM IS faster than the argonauts, faster than the Busters. DaveyM posted a fantastic analysis that hits it right on the head. If the Buster suit was as good as you are saying it's supposed to be, he'd only wear that one. The fact remains that he OPTS for the slimline armor for a reason...it's more versatile, it's more adaptable and it's FASTER. It's the only armor that in the book was clearly stated that was designed to work directly with his Extremis powers. You can theorize that he's updated all armors to have updated interfaces...but there's no proof that they do. I can theorize that the Hulk likes to dress up as Lindsay Lohan and go out partying all night long, but there's no proof that he does. I can't prove that IM didn't retrofit all of his prior armors, but I shouldn't have to prove a negative...the proof on the written page remains that only Extremis has the interface required for super-speed and reflexes.

> > Even though Tony is still putting the armor (which is in pieces) together in Avengers: Initiative #4, you continue to say it was done...
> >
>
> Again... what proof do you have that it was unfinished ?
> The fact that he putting it together just prior to facing the Hulk automatically means that he still had more work to do ?
> I didn't see any panels hanging off when Tony flew in to face the Hulk. \:\-P
>
Yes. I think that's pretty convincing evidence that if he's working on it. We have the circumstantial evidence as follows:

1) Project Achilles is still in testing when IM and She-Hulk fight. (She-Hulk #18)
2) We agree that Tony says "...I'd have more time. But I know better than anyone that things rarely turn out the way you hope." "So you do the best you can with what you have..in whatever time you have..." (Iron Man #19)
3) Rhodey hands Tony the sabotaged injector while Tony has the HB armor in a clearly undone stage. The fight occured VERY shortly after this panel, no more than at most a couple of hours.
4) While the Hulk is much faster than one would assume he could move, SpeedFreak has shown us that he's NOT supersonic tactically. One would surmise from comparing SpeedFreak and Spiderman, ahh forget that...Spiderman has avoided getting hit by the Hulk the VAST majority of the time. Iron Man has avoided getting hit by Spider-Man (by writers that acknowledge the Extremis upgrade at least). Thus, Iron Man, if wearing Extremis capable armor, would have avoided at least 1 of the Hulk's punches. He didn't. My analysis is that HB was no quicker than the HB of old. No quicker than TB of old.

> > ...it's pointless to continue. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything, so at this point I bid you adieu and wish you a good rest of your day.
>
> Well you're right, I'll leave off this debate for now. But as you'll see shortly, I'm not quite done with IM yet. >:-D
> >
I would hope not...you bring a fun and feisty spirit to this debate, without being nasty as some posters have been. You strongly believe in your stance, but don't start name-calling when someone believes equally passionately that you are absolutely wrong. Which you are. \:D
> > We'll chat again soon, different day, different argument...but this horse is dead. I think you're wronger than you've ever been...but that's cool. I'm sure you feel the same way \:D
> >
> > Have a good one, bud. \:\)
>
> Yeah you too. \:\-\)

> > > Even though the author of the Iron Man entry said that the HB wasn't the most powerful, you continue to point to the handbook...
> > >
> >
> > Ok... wrong choice of words... physically strongest then. There, happy ? \:\-\)
> >
> Happier, yes. Thank you.
> > > Even though the Extremis Iron Man armor is shown reacting in ten thousandths of a second, and NONE of the Buster suits operate at anything close to that speed, you continue to say they do...
> > >
> >
> > No offense \:\-\) but here it is you are making me sound unreasonable (as in, I'm constantly pushing a point even though I'm clearly wrong), yet you have not chosen to respond to my proving that Extremis operates along the same principles as the HB has been shown to operate as well... rocket propelled movements. You can gloss over that part but this fact has hurt your argument quite a bit since rocket propelled movements logically will be much faster than that of a regular Armor's movements.
> >
> The scan you've posted backs your argument that the Extremis armor MIGHT have rocket assistance (though the supersonic punch back in IM #7 has no such artwork, though it's by the same artist). Could be that it does, could be that it doesn't. The FACT remains that the Extremis armor has shown reaction speed and reflexes that no other armor has. You can try to argue it but the FACTS are indisputable. Spider-man is 40 times faster than a normal man (according to the handbooks)...Iron Man dodged ALL of Spider-Man's punches in IM #15 (I think that's the number, could be wrong.)

LOL you forgot to mention that the "Iron sense" aided him significantly in that endeavor. Before he had it, Spidey was able to hit IM at will. We have seen virtually nothing of that "Iron Sense" since that issue and in an upcoming issue of Spidey (One more Day), Parker was shown as being able to tag Tony again once more.

>E-IM IS faster than the argonauts, faster than the Busters. DaveyM posted a fantastic analysis that hits it right on the head. If the Buster suit was as good as you are saying it's supposed to be, he'd only wear that one.
>

Ever since Tony has gone Extremis he has been wearing the slim suit more often than not. One of his good friends even commented on how Tony has grown really attached to the Armor that it seems he hardly takes it off. Now can you imagine Tony lumbering around the Heli-carrier attending conferences and directing strategy in a one ton suit ? *eek*

The HB was designed to take on ultra-powerful bricks. Now we all know that the vast majority of the super-villain bricks Tony faces with the Avengers on a daily basis are nowhere near as powerful as the Hulk. This alone is reason enough for Tony to stick with his regular Armor. Tony also has a bit of history to back up his decision not to wear the regular suit when fighting the Hulk too because lets face it... all his other slim line armors in the past have not been that impressive against Greenie.

>The fact remains that he OPTS for the slimline armor for a reason...it's more versatile, it's more adaptable and it's FASTER. It's the only armor that in the book was clearly stated that was designed to work directly with his Extremis powers. You can theorize that he's updated all armors to have updated interfaces...but there's no proof that they do. I can theorize that the Hulk likes to dress up as Lindsay Lohan and go out partying all night long, but there's no proof that he does. I can't prove that IM didn't retrofit all of his prior armors, but I shouldn't have to prove a negative...the proof on the written page remains that only Extremis has the interface required for super-speed and reflexes.
>
> > > Even though Tony is still putting the armor (which is in pieces) together in Avengers: Initiative #4, you continue to say it was done...
> > >
> >
> > Again... what proof do you have that it was unfinished ?
> > The fact that he putting it together just prior to facing the Hulk automatically means that he still had more work to do ?
> > I didn't see any panels hanging off when Tony flew in to face the Hulk. \:\-P
> >
> Yes. I think that's pretty convincing evidence that if he's working on it. We have the circumstantial evidence as follows:
>
> 1) Project Achilles is still in testing when IM and She-Hulk fight. (She-Hulk #18)
>

Buts thats what I have been saying from day one. Tony could have been talking about "project achilles" when he made the statement about not being ready yet. Perhaps he wanted to do more testing to be sure that it would work on the Hulk with his ramped up Healing factor. We simply have no hard evidence that he was talking about the HB not being ready.

> 2) We agree that Tony says "...I'd have more time. But I know better than anyone that things rarely turn out the way you hope." "So you do the best you can with what you have..in whatever time you have..." (Iron Man #19)
> 3) Rhodey hands Tony the sabotaged injector while Tony has the HB armor in a clearly undone stage. The fight occured VERY shortly after this panel, no more than at most a couple of hours.
>

But again... if the Armor had already been rigorously tested and gone through all its checks and balances, Tony putting on the final pieces still doesn't indicate that the Armor was unfinished per say. Tony could easily have taken back off the arms to make some minor modifications to the weaponry (say, to install an adamantium needle) which in now way impacts on the over all readiness of the armor.

> 4) While the Hulk is much faster than one would assume he could move, SpeedFreak has shown us that he's NOT supersonic tactically. One would surmise from comparing SpeedFreak and Spiderman, ahh forget that...Spiderman has avoided getting hit by the Hulk the VAST majority of the time. Iron Man has avoided getting hit by Spider-Man (by writers that acknowledge the Extremis upgrade at least). Thus, Iron Man, if wearing Extremis capable armor, would have avoided at least 1 of the Hulk's punches. He didn't. My analysis is that HB was no quicker than the HB of old. No quicker than TB of old.
>

Well just as the Hulk has his Speed Freak, IM has his Dan Slott She-Hulk too, no ? \:\-D

Spiderman is extremely fast in his own way. Spiderman also has his sixth sense which gives him a substantial advantage in avoiding blows. Technically if Spidey is ever written properly, no one would be able to tag him... including IM. How fast is Spiderman ?
Well he has been able to hit IM pretty much anytime he wanted too... 0.002 second reaction time be damned. The only time Tony has ever been able to dodge Spidey is when his own Iron sense kicked in. It will be interesting to see if even the Knaufs decide to continue with that ability.

> > > ...it's pointless to continue. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything, so at this point I bid you adieu and wish you a good rest of your day.
> >
> > Well you're right, I'll leave off this debate for now. But as you'll see shortly, I'm not quite done with IM yet. >:-D
> > >
> I would hope not...you bring a fun and feisty spirit to this debate, without being nasty as some posters have been. You strongly believe in your stance, but don't start name-calling when someone believes equally passionately that you are absolutely wrong. Which you are. \:D
> > > We'll chat again soon, different day, different argument...but this horse is dead. I think you're wronger than you've ever been...but that's cool. I'm sure you feel the same way \:D
> > >
> > > Have a good one, bud. \:\)
> >
> > Yeah you too. \:\-\)


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