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Post By
Daveym 
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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Vangrab

Subj: He Didn't Stalemate, He Locked up Very Briefly.
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 09:45:10 am EST (Viewed 91 times)
Reply Subj: If Kurse is so much stronger than Thor, how did Thor stalemate Kurse in test of strength in Thor #488?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 06:48:36 am EST (Viewed 30 times)




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    And despite the test of strength Thor has with Kurse says Kurse is far stronger than Thor?



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    http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f2eb968e56.jpg



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    So, I guess that when Hulk was very angry in Defenders #10 test of strength against Thor, he was not getting angrier, he was equally angry entire hour.

There's a big difference, Just because Thor Locks up with Kurse very briefly using leverage means not a lot. The narrative makes it extremely clear he is not any sort of match, full stop. With the Hulk Thor not only locks up for an entire hour he looks in no particular trouble at the end of it, that's probobly due to his nature as an immortal and the ability to pace himself in such a situation as this... don't let anyone try telling you the Hulks anger is some bottomless well and he can just pump his strength level up as far as he needs to - it's a long proven myth.


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    And what about that thing in Wolverine #144?



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    Hercules and Karkas (member of the Deviants) were unable to break free of the chains that Leader made. Wolverine broke them free with his adamantium claws. Does it mean Hulk is stronger than Hercules than, since Hercules was not able to break free of the Leader's chains?

Why would it mean that? If the Hulk had been there and done what Hercules provenly couldn't then sure it would be indicative of something... on the other hand the Hulk was routinely captured by Gammabase and other parties and they were able to hold him securely. The technology to hold beings on this level does exist.


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    Compare how Hulk and Hercules (immortal), whose power has been augmented by the Evolutionary’s evolution chamber, fared against a blast from the High Evolutionary... AVENGERS Annual #17



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    http://mynetimages.com/viewimage/b46e3b77



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    http://mynetimages.com/viewimage/337d9f62



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    So, does it mean Hulk is both stronger and more durable than this empowered, immortal Hercules?

Not when Gray Hulk is specifically weaker than the likes of Abomination, Thor or Namor no.


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    Here is the thing:



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    While it is true that most of Thor's esoteric powers come from or are channeled through Mjolnir, you sell short to say that Thor is "not all that" without Mjolnir. Throughout the bulk of his history, Thor has been shown to be at least as durable as Hercules (moreso if you think back to Avengers vs. Korvac) and as strong as Herc and Hulk in direct combat. It should cast no doubt on his strength that he has trouble with Hulk and Juggernaut; since the Hulk heals almost instantly from damage and the other, Juggernaut is magically impervious. It would be nearly impossible to simply beat either of them into submission even if they weren't strong.

No, sorry this is a rubbish argument. You are just unilaterally assuming the Hulk is invincible thanks to the Healing ability, that he is next to impossible to KO. Maybe it's the excesses of Greg Paks writing that are warping your views here but do bear in mind the Hulk only rarely fights opponents who are inarguably in his same powerclass.
He has not had a serious fight with any of his peers in a long long time now that have forgone any outside power-ups or mitigating circumstances.
Thor for his part had spent much of the mid-90s in ill health and eventually in Limbo, please don't take Hulk #440 as anything to write home about when it is made very clear in the sequel issue of Avengers #497 he is not the God he once was, the Worldengines attack left a permanent mark on him that wasn't fully healed until after Heroes Reborn.


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    You're putting the Hulk overpowering (but not KOing) twice stronger Abomination, and yet Thor faced and overpowered Ulik who strength has been increased several times.

Yes, Thor does have showings like that but on the other hand neither Emil Blonsky or Ulik are good under pressure. Heroes will always occasionally push that extra bit to go beyond their usual limit but it also helps when the opponent caves in in response to that and doesn't press their advantage....!


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    The reason why Thor couldn't put Kurse down is not just his strength, but his incredible durability.



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    Yes....it has been shown that Hulk can beat thor down and probably in the end win almost all the battles (when thor doesn't have his hammer).

Maybe, and it's a BIG maybe that hinges totally on that fill-in issue by Erik Larsen. Historically the two have been shown as peers and i have no reason to think Marvel right now has the view otherwise.


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    However, Thor has been beaten by the Hulk in issue #385 because his body couldn't take as much punishment as the Hulks....I don't think anyone would say that Thor has more healing than hulk or tougher skin..whether it was diamond hard skin back then or great healing power now.



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    Ok, even if in that era Hulk did not have healing factor, it was shown he still could take much more beatings/punishment than Thor.



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    So....if someone mistakenly refers to "strength" by including endurance or dexterity.....then I can see how they would say that Hulk is stronger.



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    But...sheer strength doesn't include them. So, if Thor was holding his own for quite a while...then he may have actually been stronger than Hulk even at the end...since he had to make up for the great healing/body armor of the Hulk.

That's really not it, not completely anyway. The Hulk is a character who's single biggest advantage over anyone is his sheer aggression and violent nature, of course he's going to look good against the more placid even tempered Thor and it's a huge part of the reason why the more laid back Ben Grimm can't really compete - he just isn't that violent or able to turn beserk like the Hulk is.
Now if you had a Thor who was going all-out as in Blood & Thunder or a Hercules as he was against Kylblyn the Skrull God just what logical reason would there be to think the Hulk could beat them? How is it Wolverine always does so well?
Power often equates to temerament, It's all relative.


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    However, the Hulk's incarnations that would be stronger than Thor, would be war-Hulk, than WWH (but not by much), this is reinforced with WWH's incredibly powerful healing factor, Red Hulk, Onslaught-Hulk (but only his last punch, in that second he was stronger than Thor, not before that punch, however the same could do enraged Thor in the last all-or-nothing punch when getting totally enraged). The fact is Thor we have never seen Thor hitting something extremely tough to break with his fists, but from his fights with the Hulk and their tests of strength and durability he obviously can do it, but he uses Mjolnir 99, 99% of the time.


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    It only proves that Hulk's striking power is greater than Thor's striking power (with fists, only), while we haven't really seen who possesses greater lifting power-Thor or the Hulk, that is the question.


If Thor = the Hulks strength then him having a Hammer has to mean extra striking force. No one would carry a weapon like that if it wasn't practical and effective at what it does.
I don't know what Marvels attitude to these two is for sure right now but popularity likely plays into it somewhere, the X-men were treated beyond their station in the MU in their heyday in the 90s and Thor is enjoying a success he's not had since the 80s right now, I would think based on that you definitly aren't going to see any indication Thor is below the Hulks powerlevel anytime soon...

















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