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Post By
The Mandarin

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,003
In Reply To
JES

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,315
Subj: Cosmics are boring
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 01:51:41 pm EST (Viewed 92 times)
Reply Subj: DC versus Marvel Cosmics... essay time.
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 01:03:24 pm EST (Viewed 137 times)

Previous Post

Last week I posted my attempt at quantifying the top tier cosmics across the board, and I thought I’d explain my methodology.

Marvel, as always, is much easier in this regard, although even THAT cosmic hierarchy has grown muddied. But measuring Marvel’s entities relative to DC’s ultimate powers is even more problematic, not only because of DC’s general reluctance to assign measurements to ANY of their characters (or even establish a consistent continuity), but because of a number of basic structural differences between the two fictional universes. It’s difficult to stay on the same page when you’re not always comparing the same thing.

The term ‘multiverse’ is a good example, as the term has different implications for top-tier characters, depending upon which universe you’re talking about.

At Marvel, the multiverse is truly infinite – like a series of mirrors facing each other. But there is a difference in how separate these individual realities are from one another.

It’s simpler if you think in terms of total realities versus dimensional realities. Each total reality is its own Eternity, complete with alternate timelines and multi-dimensions in and of itself. Each Eternity – including the mainstream 616 – would be it’s own ‘What-If’ reality.

For example, the ‘What If’ universe where Korvac defeated the Avengers had its own future timelines, with its own Guardians, it had its own sub-dimensions with its own abstracts like Order and Chaos, and it’s own Cube Beings (and by definition, it’s own dimension of the Beyonders). And at the end, this whole reality died when Korvac killed this Eternity with the Ultimate Nullifier.

616’s Eternity has within himself/itself it’s own sub-dimensions and alternate timelines. These realities, like the Maestro’s future, or the Black Celestial saga, or the myriad X-futures, all exist within this Eternity.

This multiverse of Eternities is presided over by the Living Tribunal. But there is a larger megaverse beyond – essentially this applies to Marvel properties that are not connected to the primary Marvel reality. These would be the Ultimates universe, or cartoon or TV shows, or movies – beyond the jurisdiction of the Living Tribunal. This megaverse was what was represented by the ‘Brothers’ from the Marvel/DC war.

Beyond the megaverse is the Omniverse – OUR universe. For statting purposes, Eternity would be a Class 5000 being. The LT would be a Beyond Level 1, the Brothers would be Beyond Level 2, and the Omniverse would be Beyond Level 3.

The same scale can be applied to DC’s reality as well, although it is important to note a couple of differences in definitions versus power levels.

DC’s primary reality – in whatever post-crisis form it is currently taking – is like a single Eternity – with ONE Death, one Source, etc – with a finite series of sub-dimensional universes (52 right now, I guess). DC’s ‘multiverse’ is really more like Marvel’s multi-dimensional alternate timelines, each one with its own thematic ‘spin’ on the primary reality (evil JLA – that sort of thing).

THIS was the sort of reality being destroyed by the Anti-Monitor – in Marvel terms, a single Eternity - a series of multi-dimensional universes. The Crisis on Infinite Earths had no impact other DC titles – like the All Star titles - existing in the larger megaverse, unaffected by Crisis-style events in the mainstream reality. This suggests that the Crisis occurred within a single Eternity/Reality.

For stat purposes, then, DC’s multi-dimensional mainstream ‘multiverse’ would be it’s own Eternity – not a direct translation in terms of definition, of course, but comparable in terms of power-level - so for DC this is Class 5000 level. Death and the Source would be Class 5000. Characters like Lucifer would be in the Beyond Level 1. The Great Evil Beast – equal to the entirety of DC Creation – the Megaverse would be Beyond Level 2 – equal to the Brothers.

Briefly concerning the Brothers – Yeah, I know they’ve been retconned as a collaboration creation of the LT and the Spectre, which has been used to suggest that they are on a lower power level. But that doesn’t work, ret con or no retcon – the Brothers were clearly demonstrated to be far beyond the LT or Spectre. This is reasonable if you consider that the retcon establishes that the Brothers were put in place to safeguard the two megaverses from each other – humans often build constructs that far exceed them in power, so it makes sense that the LT and Spectre could collaborate to do so as well.

But retcons aside, in any case, the DC’s constant blurring of the reality borders makes comparing the top tiers of DC and Marvel tricky – the Elseworlds realities, for example, are a catch-all with varying degrees of ties to mainstream realities. Beings at DC transverse dimensional barriers more arbitrarily than at Marvel - beings in Marvel don’t travel to different Eternities/What Ifs, whereas comparable dimensional sidestepping has happened from time to time at DC. I chalk that up to different physical laws from one megaverse to the other.

Now all of this is, of course, non-official, but the logic inherent in this comparative category structure pans out.

Using Marvel’s write-ups as a base (and all the following are taken the Gamer’s Sourcebooks, with a small amount of minor updating), Eternity and Death (and I apply this directly to the Endless’ version) would be Class 5000. The balancing force between them would be Galactus, at Class 3000. Within the Universe itself, the primal forces like the Phoenix and the Celestials would also be Class 3000. The sub-dimensional reality of Order and Chaos would be Class 3000 (gaining +1CS within their own realm), with each representing one polar end of their concept at Class 1000 apiece. The balancing force between them would be the In-Betweener at Shift Z 500. Other abstracts would have power relative to their concepts. If Existence and Non-Existence represented by Death and Eternity are at Class 5000, and Order and Chaos, as a primal force of existence are at Class 3000, then lesser concepts, such as emotion, Love and Hate (or Desire, Despair, etc.) would wield influence at Shift Z (500) or so.

The catch-all term ‘Omnipotent’ would be any category above Shift Z (500) (Skyfather), at Class 1000 and beyond. Cosmic Cubes have a finite ability to manipulate reality, at Class 1000.

And oh yeah, I updated the Heart of the Universe entry this weekend, but I forgot to bring it in today. But I think that's the last major power I need for Marvel, and that should round things up nicely as now we have a number of characters at each level for direct comparision. Here's a rough estimate of how the entities pair up:

Presence/One Above All at Beyond Level-3

Great Evil Beast/Heart of the Universe at Beyond Level-2

Lucifer Morningstar/The Living Tribunal at Beyond Level 1

The Source/Eternity at Class 5000


Cosmics aren't characters, they're plot-devices. The only thing you need to know about their power is, it's vastly higher than any superhero, so much so that they can't be faced in direct combat. They're plot-devices. The End.




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