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Subj: Re: Here are the reasons
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 at 09:09:03 pm CDT (Viewed 827 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Here are the reasons
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 at 02:48:17 pm CDT (Viewed 758 times)
At this point it's fairly obvious we're looking at these claims from completely different point of view. Which is fine, but I don't think we're ever going to agree.
Here's where I'm coming from...the original post in this thread pointed to this story as evidence that Trump lies, and the WP story bills itself as containing false or misleading statements. I honestly did not realize that some claims had zero Pinochios, thank you for pointing that out. However, if that's the case, then why include in them in a list of false and misleading statements?
Regarding flip/flops, and statements in which the WP added clarification, I just don't think they belong in a list of false or misleading statements. In my opinion, doing so makes the story false or misleading.
Quote:What I am asking you to do is to look at the WP claims of false statements that I highlight in my post above. I chose a fair number of falsehood claims that I disagree with, and I use that to demonstrate what I see as a bias by the WP. Do you agree that there are falsehood claims which aren't false? There's no point in moving on to discuss claims by Politifact if we don't agree that some of the WP claims show bias.
Quote:Okay, let's look at your takes:
Quote:- Regarding stock market gains, Trump makes an absolutely true statement. He said the stock market went up, and it has. Whether or not he was correct in earlier statements that any increase in the market under Obama were not due to Obama's policies is a different matter. Trumps statement about Obama's market may be open to disagreement, but Trump's statement about the most recent market gains is a fact.
Quote:First, the WP gives this statement 0 Pinocchios
I did not notice that when going through the list.
Quote:so the WP isn't saying that Trump is lying at all. You're disputing something that isn't in dispute.
I don't agree here. My main argument was that the statement doesn't belong in a list of false and misleading statements. I'm going to stick with that for this statement.
Quote:The WP analysis is "This is a flip-flop for Trump. Before he was elected, he dismissed the stock-market performance under Obama as 'artificial' and 'a bubble.'" You're trying to describe whether Trump's statement is true. The WP is not disputing that. The WP is pointing out Trump's hypocrisy at citing numbers that he previously dismissed when nothing underlying those numbers have changed.
But the statement can be made without there being any hypocrisy. In order for the stock market gains from 2008-2016 to be attributable to Obama, someone would have to point towards specific policies he helped implement which caused the gains. Being president while something happens does not simply qualify as being the president's fault. Nobody can rightly say Obama caused the Cubs to win the World Series. However, most financial analysts do attribute the recent gains to Trump. The stock market is forward looking, and recent gains reflect the market looking at proposed lower taxes and less regulations.
Please note that I am *not* saying that Obama deserves no credit for any of the stock market gains while he was president. I'm only saying that Trump doesn't believe so. And so there is no hypocrisy, and no flip/flop. But the WP article doesn't consider that.
Quote:- Regarding the statement on the Navy being the smallest since WWI, I don't know if this is true or not. But the statement used to refute Trump in no way proves this false. Both statements can be true; that the Navy is at it's smallest, and also that the power of a smaller Navy today is equivalent to what a larger one provided years ago. This is not a lie.
Quote:I agree with you that this is technically not a lie, but in context, it is a misleading statement because Trump is trying to say a smaller navy is less powerful than a larger one years ago. So I'd give it one Pinocchio instead of 3.
Quote:- Trump said he got a larger percentage of black and Hispanic votes than recent Republican candidates. This is absolutely true. The story admits that. That McCain and Romney ran against a black president may be a factor, but that does not make Trump a liar. Remember...the story claims that these statements by Trump are false or misleading, when it's simple an accurate fact.
Quote:Again, this one is a matter of degree. You omit that part where Trump said he did "much better" than past Republicans. Is improving on Romney from 6% to 8% of the black vote, that is 2%, "much better"? That's debatable. I don't think this statement is that important and its veracity depends on how one construes "much better."
This is where talking about gains of percentage points gets messy. One could say a move from 6% to 8% is a 2% gain. But it's also commonly acceptable to look at the gain as a percent of the original. A 2% gain on 6% is an increase of 33%, which is significant.
Quote:- The fact that people can be on welfare and work at the same time does not make it a false statement to say you want to get people off welfare and get them to work. The context is clear to anyone who is not the most blatant partisan.
Quote:The WP gave this 0 Pinocchios and so they are not calling it false. You don't seem to realize that.
You are absolutely correct, I did not realize that. But I stick by my opinion that this statement does not belong in a list of false or misleading statements. I think the context was clear.
Quote:- When claiming that the media has ignored crimes against Americans committed by illegal immigrants, again, it's in the context. He's speaking of national media. A local outlet in Phoenix is not going to be much help informing people outside that city. I don't agree this statement rises to the level of being false.
Quote:Why would this be in the context of national media? Why would the national media report any single crime by an illegal immigrant unless it was outrageous in some manner? Almost by necessity, singular instances of illegal immigrant crime would be reported locally. If there were an illegal immigrant crimewave, then that would be reported nationally, but such a thing does not exist.
I would expect a national media who has spoke out fairly strongly against border protection to cover reasons why some on the other side of the argument feel it is a necessity.
Quote:- That the Keystone Pipeline could create as many as 42,000 jobs, the story admits that that figure is within the estimate, but then calls the statement false.
Quote:Only relatively speaking. The WP gives this two Pinocchios so they are saying it's a relatively minor falsehood in the sense that it is pretty unlikely for the pipeline to create that many jobs.
But if the WP agrees Trump's number is within the range, then it shouldn't be on this list at all. If we're going to include all optimistic statements made by politicians as false and misleading, we'd run out of room on the internet.
Quote:- Trump speaks about the evil of sex trafficking, and says people wouldn't believe how bad it is. The story then calls this a false statement because *only* 8,000 to 10,000 children are involved in sex trafficking. Is there anyone who can explain this to me??? How is that Okay? Why is Trump wrong to be against 8,000 to 10,000 children in sex trafficking?
Quote:First, the WP isn't calling this a false statement. It is only putting this statement into perspective. You're not taking this statement in context. Obviously even 1 child in sex trafficking is bad. Trump is saying sex trafficking is notably worse than people think it is in the United States. 8 to 10 thousand children is obviously bad, but per capita compared to other countries, it's not that bad. Given the U.S. population, we are talking about 1 child per 33,000 people.
It seems we're just not going to agree, as this sticks out to me as the most blatant example of bias. I fully see your point about looking at it in terms of per capita, and comparing to other nations. But with all the actual false statements Trump has made, I see absolutely no reason to include this in a list of false or misleading statements unless the goal is to be a political hit-piece. All Trump did was express outrage at illegal sex trafficking. It doesn't seem like something the WP should take issue with.
Quote:- The Thomas Jefferson quote by Trump is accurate. There is no reason to call it false. In fact Jefferson went further, "A man who never looks into newspapers is better informed than he who reads them". You can disagree with Thomas Jefferson, but you can't disagree with Trump that Jefferson said it.
Quote:Again, you seem unaware that the WP is not calling this statement false but putting it in context. Trump is cherry picking a Thomas Jefferson statement that does not broadly reflect his view of journalism in general.
Similar to other claims by the WP, it is my opinion that they are setting the bar extremely low for what gets included in a list of false or misleading statements from Trump. One should not have to expound upon someone's life-long view of a topic to quote him. Although, I will admit that some of Jefferson's statements regarding the press are somewhat contradictory. The fact that he sometimes abused the press as his personal political weapon makes it even more complex.
Quote:- When Trump states that millions of Americans have lost their insurance due to Obamacare, the counterpoint made in the article is that people can but new insurance. Similar to many other cases, this counterpoint does not prove Trump wrong. He is factually correct. If my car is stolen, and I go to the police, they wouldn't tell me that my car wasn't stolen, just because I could buy a new one. The fact that there is a replacement available doesn't negate the fact that what was once held is gone.
Quote:You are being way too literal here. You missed WP's real explanation: "Some 20 million people have gained health coverage because of the law. About 2 million people were told their old plans no longer qualified under the law, but after an uproar, most received waivers that kept the plans going until the end of 2017." So about 2 million were going to lose their old plans but MOST got waivers that kept their plans going so millions actually did not end up losing their insurance.
But you left off the part "until 2017" Those people will be losing their insurance.
Quote:So you picked 9 cases in which you dispute the WP, but the WP doesn't call half of these false and only seeks to clarify context. The other half are debatable cases or clearly misleading statement even if not outright lies.
If the WP doesn't consider them false, then the statements have no place on a list of false statements. You are absolutely correct that I did not realize some of those had zero Pinochios, but my point stands, that I don't see any reason to include or "clarify" some of those without political bias.
I disagree that any of those specific ones are outright lies.
Quote:So you have maybe 4 or 5 cases which the WP could have done a better job out of 247 cases. That's hardly a sign of extreme bias on the part of the Washington Post.
I chose a few that stuck out to me. The list was extremely long, and I did not go through the whole thing. To interpret my original reply as all the examples one could have issue with in the list is incorrect. It's simply all I made time for.
Quote:So now answer my point here about Trump's lies being far more egregious than anything Obama has ever stated...
Absolutely, fair is fair. But please take this in context. I am in no way saying Obama is a horrible liar, and I am not saying he lied more than Trump. My original point was that all politicians lie, and that Trump is no more horrible in that area than others.
So here are some of examples what I consider to be Obama lies:
- "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period." This turned out to be not true for millions of Americans.
- "If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance. Period." Millions of Americans lost their insurance due to new restrictions under Obamacare.
- He promised not to raise any taxes of any kind for families making under $250,000 a year. Taxes on tobacco were raised, and the median income of smokers is $36,000 per year. Taxes on investment Income were raised. The FSA tax. There were at least nine different taxes as part of the Obamacare regulations that affected everyone with insurance.
- He promised not to have any lobbyists in his administration, yet he did.
- Closing Guantanamo Bay was a big promise that we heard many times during the campaign. It never happened.
- During the campaign the promise was made to end marijuana raids if the distribution was within state laws. Rolling Stone had a story detailing how Obama was worse than Bush regarding DEA raids.
- On July 5, 2016 Obama claimed, "The steel industry is producing as much steel in the US as it ever was". This is not a true statement.
- The claim that a fence between the US and Mexican border was "basically complete" was made on May 10, 2011. Given current events, I think we all know there is not a fence across US/Mexico border.
- In one press conference he specifically referred to ISIS as the JV team. But in a later statement he claimed that he wasn't referring to ISIS.
- When promoting his healthcare bill he stated that "most young Americans" did have insurance. That was false.
- He said abortions would not be covered by Obamacare, yet they are.
- He said there would be no earmarks in the 2009 stimulus package, but there were.
- On Feb 22, 2012 he said "For the first time since 1990, American manufacturers are creating new jobs." That was false.
- "The only time government employment has gone down during a recession has been under me." That was false.
- In 2012 he claimed that operation "Fast and Furious" was started under George W. Bush. That was absolutely false.
Quote:Even on the face of it, it's obvious that Trump lies far more frequently and blatantly than Obama. When has Obama ever made such a factually incorrect claim as gross as Trump's that 3-5 million illegals voted in the last election or that Obama wiretapped Trump, which Trump's people are already walking way back from or that thousands of Muslims celebrated 9/11 in the streets of New Jersey?
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