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In Reply To
eugenioabraham: the ex exposed guy

Subj: Re: End Of The Spider-Ghetto?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:14:51 am EDT
Reply Subj: Re: End Of The Spider-Ghetto?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:12:01 pm EDT

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> You know what? For a flagship title, Spider-Man the character just wasn't very important to the Marvel Universe in general pre-New Avengers.

but he was. I cant said this for sure, but IMO he is the Marvel character that has had the most number of team ups with diferents heroes (Marvel or otherwise).

>Amazing Spider-Man and the various spin-offs through the years may be bread and butter for Marvel in the same way a Romance Section alone can keep a bookstore afloat but he wasn't very integrated into the Marvel Universe as a whole.

well, that it is mostly because what defined the character back then, was that he was a sort of a loner and he give a lot of importance to keep safe his secret identity mostly to protect his lover ones.
But he does interact with other heroes.. remember Maximum Carnage? that was a story that affected NY city, and has a lot of the NY city heroes in it. The same with the Sinister Six run done by Erik Larsen.

>I started thinking of Spider-Man's place for the first thirty-some years while walking out of Atomic Comics a while back and realized he's been pretty much confined to the Spider-Ghetto.
> Think about it. As much as anyone might enjoy the character (and I have even through the years that I never bought any Spider-Title) there wasn't a lot of cause and effect between his books and anyone else's.

But that also happen to most of the titles. How many times the Avengers, FF,Defenders or the Xmen had fough global threating menaces and no one else has noticed? Also, they all live on the same City and how many times had NY city been invaded or destroyed on Avengers while the FF were nowhere around? Even all the diferents groups of Xmen live on the same house and most of the times the Mantion is destroyed on a title while the other group is playing basketball outside. So, that things happen a lot with all of the comics.

>Sure, thanks to Marvel Team-Up there's a lot of characters that have fought alongside Peter Parker but no one really close. Or if they were close to him, like Daredevil, it was only in a Spider-Title that the relationship existed.
>That all began to change with New Avengers #1.

well, yeah. But that is because other character are team player, and some of them are team players with their own comics. So you can see the friendship between Thor, Cap and Ironman.. on Thor, Cap, Ironman and Avengers titles.. but it is not very likely to see that on other titles. However I see your point here.

> Now we see Spider-Man developing lasting relationships between himself and the other team members.

well, yeah.. and I kind of like that. But the sad part is... that we also lost the lasting relationships that already exist. What made unique the Spider-verse (or ghetto) it was not just Spiderman, it was Peter Parker dealing with been a superhero call Spiderman. How many superheroes are there whose secret identity is as famous as his costumed name? And I mean inside and outside the comic industry. If you mention Iceman, Hawkeye or even Captain America... how many people think of Boby Drake, Clint Barton or Steve Rogers?
So, Peter Parker is as important as Spiderman, and he had one of the most rich and unique supporting cast on all of the comic industry. He had a very human supporting cast. Sure, we got to see Spiderman interact more with Cage, Spiderwoman, Cap and Ironman... but for the most part we also lost track of J.J.Jameson, Roby, Betty Brand, Flash Thomson, etc. And most of they dont have other place to go outside the Spider-ghetto.

> He moved into Avengers Tower. Heck, Tony Stark even became a bit of a father figure for Peter and these are all things that wouldn't be possible if he weren't on the Avengers lineup now. And you know what? I like the changes!

and I also do. I think Spiderman into the Avengers was a natural development, at some point he just had to do it. But it is sad that so much that made him unique, and that made him stand apart of other comics books, it seems to be lost now.

> Also, with the other Spider-Titles about to be folded into a thrice weekly Amazing Spider-Man it looks like the Spider-Ghetto might be a thing of the past and I say good riddance!

as I said before... it is kind of sad.

>I didn't even realize it was bothering me that Spidey wasn't a major player inside the MU until that day walking out of Atomic Comics but it sure is sweet that he is one now!

and I still think he also was one before. He was there for almost all of the big company x-overs. He was not a star inside the MU as most of the Avengers are, but that allow him to get in touch with the whole MU. He could easily get along with Captain America and the Human Torch, as with Punisher or Ghost Rider.

> Of course, that still leaves the Defenders Ghetto and the X-Ghetto to tear down but one step at a time, deal?

mmm.. well a whole fully MU totally integrated seems like something good to have, but just as long as the editors could keep that way. And as it is, they should be keeping that way as it is now. They seems to have troubles doing that.

> Oh, and an afterthought: I look at the Marvel Universe being an Avengers World with the ghettos as adjuncts but there's one title I can't place: The Fantastic Four. They are definitely separate from the Avengers titles but not so disconnected as to be considered ghettoized. Any thoughts?

While i can see both sides to this arguement, I think the only reason the arguement exists in the first place is that after Stan Lee left any title he started, the books all got complacent. The writers and editorial staff that came after all realized that these werent there toys to begin with. But what Stan Lee wanted to do to set Marvel apart from D.C. is to have stories that mattered. Stories that changed the characters. There have been a few instances where a writer shook things up.. Frank Miller in Daredevil. The death of Gwen Stacy. Peter Davids run on the Hulk. But I think the major reason people complain about the changes Marvel has made in the last few years is that, after 30 years of the "status quo" all these changes seem so sudden. Comparatively they are coming so fast and by groups that its a shock to the long time readers. I think if Marvel had always been like this, the fans wouldnt be so divided on the issue. Look at Ultimate Spiderman. There have been more changes in 100 issues then all of the 616 spiderverse in the last 30 years. And I dont think that its because its the "alternate spiderman title" so much that its been consistant in its forward momentum. Imagine if Spiderman 616 had been written like that since the beginning. Things like Civil War wouldnt have caused such a divide amungst fans. They would have long ago accepted that change happens at marvel. And personally I dont think all the changes in USM has hurt it at all. It feels natural for the character.

Personnally I always felt the stagnacy of the Marvel U has always hurt it. 40 years of JJJ acting the same. Of Storms claustrophobia, of Rogue not being able to touch anyone. The same Thing/torch fights. Prof X walking.. then not walking then walking then not. The things that made me saddest about Marvel in my years of reading is when i hear the PTB want to go back to the way things were. Making Peter parker the teenage bachalor. Making the Hulk mindless. Making Ghost Rider Johnny Blaze again without any sign that he learned from his experiences. Hell Even putting Scarlet Which back into her old hair and costume after Force works. (I understand it might have not been the most popular look for her.. but show me one woman that modernizes her look.. then goes back to what she was wearing in the 70's)

Some changes are pretty drastic and unliked. The Iron Man changes for example. And while I agree that it doesnt quite fit his character... At least Marvel is trying something different and not rehashing the whole demon in a bottle like they always tease.

So.. anyone agree? Does anyone think that if Marvel progressed like the Ultimate U for the last 40 years.. would it be better off?


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