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Post By
Nick Katzenberg

In Reply To
Brak

Subj: Re: End Of The Spider-Ghetto?
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:44:12 am EDT
Reply Subj: Re: End Of The Spider-Ghetto?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:14:51 am EDT

Previous Post

While i can see both sides to this arguement, I think the only reason the arguement exists in the first place is that after Stan Lee left any title he started, the books all got complacent. The writers and editorial staff that came after all realized that these werent there toys to begin with. But what Stan Lee wanted to do to set Marvel apart from D.C. is to have stories that mattered. Stories that changed the characters. There have been a few instances where a writer shook things up.. Frank Miller in Daredevil. The death of Gwen Stacy. Peter Davids run on the Hulk. But I think the major reason people complain about the changes Marvel has made in the last few years is that, after 30 years of the "status quo" all these changes seem so sudden. Comparatively they are coming so fast and by groups that its a shock to the long time readers. I think if Marvel had always been like this, the fans wouldnt be so divided on the issue. Look at Ultimate Spiderman. There have been more changes in 100 issues then all of the 616 spiderverse in the last 30 years. And I dont think that its because its the "alternate spiderman title" so much that its been consistant in its forward momentum. Imagine if Spiderman 616 had been written like that since the beginning. Things like Civil War wouldnt have caused such a divide amungst fans. They would have long ago accepted that change happens at marvel. And personally I dont think all the changes in USM has hurt it at all. It feels natural for the character.

Personnally I always felt the stagnacy of the Marvel U has always hurt it. 40 years of JJJ acting the same. Of Storms claustrophobia, of Rogue not being able to touch anyone. The same Thing/torch fights. Prof X walking.. then not walking then walking then not. The things that made me saddest about Marvel in my years of reading is when i hear the PTB want to go back to the way things were. Making Peter parker the teenage bachalor. Making the Hulk mindless. Making Ghost Rider Johnny Blaze again without any sign that he learned from his experiences. Hell Even putting Scarlet Which back into her old hair and costume after Force works. (I understand it might have not been the most popular look for her.. but show me one woman that modernizes her look.. then goes back to what she was wearing in the 70's)

Some changes are pretty drastic and unliked. The Iron Man changes for example. And while I agree that it doesnt quite fit his character... At least Marvel is trying something different and not rehashing the whole demon in a bottle like they always tease.

So.. anyone agree? Does anyone think that if Marvel progressed like the Ultimate U for the last 40 years.. would it be better off?

Brak

I don't think fans are so much against change as they are against changes that don't fit or make sense and get shoehorned onto characters they love.

You make a good point about people putting Stan's characters up on a pedestal, but at the same time, if they had been put through the ringer at the same pace their Ultimate counterparts have for the last 40 years, I can't see them building up the same following and place in the culture that they enjoy today. It's a double-edged sword.

I also think you're short-changing the amount of progress that has occured in the main Marvel Universe as well, especially within Spider-Man's corner of it. Peter Parker went from a complete social outcast high schooler, to a college guy with friends, to a married man, he said goodbye to his Aunt and was on the verge of fatherhood for a while. It's only been the last decade that he's been regressed, but he also grew up a little more when he took the teaching job at his old high school, and grew as a superhero when he joined the Avengers.

Peter going public with his secret identity is a bad change because it flies in the face of every single instance where he debated coming out before. He's not stupid enough to actually believe that MJ and May would have been safe at Stark Tower - how many times were the Avengers out of town when Spidey needed them before?

Had Spidey been unmasked against his will, I think it would have gone over better, maybe even considered a classic because you have the turmoil of a man having everything ripped away from him in one moment that he's worked his entire adult life to protect. It would have meant more than simply asking May and MJ for permission because "Tony thinks it's a good idea."

It's not that fans are deadset against new ideas, just the way a lot of them have been executed.

> While i can see both sides to this arguement, I think the only reason the arguement exists in the first place is that after Stan Lee left any title he started, the books all got complacent. The writers and editorial staff that came after all realized that these werent there toys to begin with. But what Stan Lee wanted to do to set Marvel apart from D.C. is to have stories that mattered. Stories that changed the characters. There have been a few instances where a writer shook things up.. Frank Miller in Daredevil. The death of Gwen Stacy. Peter Davids run on the Hulk. But I think the major reason people complain about the changes Marvel has made in the last few years is that, after 30 years of the "status quo" all these changes seem so sudden. Comparatively they are coming so fast and by groups that its a shock to the long time readers. I think if Marvel had always been like this, the fans wouldnt be so divided on the issue. Look at Ultimate Spiderman. There have been more changes in 100 issues then all of the 616 spiderverse in the last 30 years. And I dont think that its because its the "alternate spiderman title" so much that its been consistant in its forward momentum. Imagine if Spiderman 616 had been written like that since the beginning. Things like Civil War wouldnt have caused such a divide amungst fans. They would have long ago accepted that change happens at marvel. And personally I dont think all the changes in USM has hurt it at all. It feels natural for the character.
>
> Personnally I always felt the stagnacy of the Marvel U has always hurt it. 40 years of JJJ acting the same. Of Storms claustrophobia, of Rogue not being able to touch anyone. The same Thing/torch fights. Prof X walking.. then not walking then walking then not. The things that made me saddest about Marvel in my years of reading is when i hear the PTB want to go back to the way things were. Making Peter parker the teenage bachalor. Making the Hulk mindless. Making Ghost Rider Johnny Blaze again without any sign that he learned from his experiences. Hell Even putting Scarlet Which back into her old hair and costume after Force works. (I understand it might have not been the most popular look for her.. but show me one woman that modernizes her look.. then goes back to what she was wearing in the 70's)
>
> Some changes are pretty drastic and unliked. The Iron Man changes for example. And while I agree that it doesnt quite fit his character... At least Marvel is trying something different and not rehashing the whole demon in a bottle like they always tease.
>
> So.. anyone agree? Does anyone think that if Marvel progressed like the Ultimate U for the last 40 years.. would it be better off?
>
> Brak


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