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Post By
Unstable Molecule

In Reply To
USAgentfan

Subj: Re: Who are the new heroes?
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:25:58 pm EDT (Viewed 1 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Who are the new heroes?
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:31:18 am EDT (Viewed 1 times)

Previous Post

> So we have in this day and age:
> - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;


Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.


> - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;


The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?

Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.


> - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);

What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?

Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.


> - A traitorous and dead Captain America;

'Traitorous'?

I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?

Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.

> - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;

As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?

The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.

I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.

> - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;

Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.

You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?

Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.

You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.


>
> ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
>
> Here's my short list (in no particular order):
>
> 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
>
> 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
>
> 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
>
> 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
>
> 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
>

I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.

> > So we have in this day and age:
> > - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
>
>
> Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.
>
It went something like this: Tony Stark influenced Peter to reveal his identity to the world in order to advance the Superhuman Registration Act (see my comments on Iron Man). As a direct result, the Kingpin took out a contract on Peter, MJ and Aunt May, succeeding in the shooting of Aunt May. While she lingered near death, Peter sought help from all friends, allies and even enemies, and all told him essentially the same thing: it's Aunt May's time, and Peter should use the remaining time to be with her and make peace with her death. Enter Mephisto. He claimed he could cure May, and his price would be that Peter and MJ would never have married and would not be in love. Incredibly, Peter and MJ said yes (first MJ got the secret identity back). Still, the fact remains that they threw away their vows before God by directly making a deal with the devil. Apparently the end justifies the means for Spider-man too.
>
> > - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
>
>
> The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?
>
> Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.
>
So... we're in agreement, it seems.
>
> > - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
>
> What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?
>
> Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.
>
More agreement. But it's still morally grey.
>
> > - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
>
> 'Traitorous'?
>
> I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?
>
> Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.

Due to the SHRA, Cap was directly breaking the law and encouraging others to do so, hence the word traitorous. I'm no Cap expert, but I think his past rebellions against the government haven't been illegal. I happen to believe Cap was taking the right stand, and I admired him as a hero for it. But the government arrested him and took him into custody, where he was killed by a hail of bullets. Now that he's dead, the original hero is gone from the Marvel U.
>
> > - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
>
> As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?
>
> The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.
>
> I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.
>
Understandable? Yes. Heroic? No. Villainous, in fact.

> > - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
>
> Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.
>
Realistic does not equal heroic. I can't look up to Scott for these actions.

> You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?
>
That's... quite a leap from the statement I made above, which is based on the facts as we know them now (in X-Force and New X-Men). My point is that Scott's actions aren't heroic.

> Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.
>
> You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.
>
I'd say you missed the point (not to mention the intent) of my post. This is a post about heroes; it's point is that I admire the characters below. Its intent is to praise those characters. The characters and situations I mentioned above are there for context. It's fair to say I don't like the direction the above characters are taking. Is it interesting? Yes. Would I want my kids to look up to and idolize those characters? No.

As for whining, I think you'll agree that my comments below are a very long way from whining.
>
> >
> > ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
> >
> > Here's my short list (in no particular order):
> >
> > 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
> >
> > 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
> >
> > 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
> >
> > 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
> >
> > 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
> >
>
> I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.

As with anything in comics, it's writer-dependent. I think a lot of characterization was off in Civil War and One More Day (among other stories), because those were the tales that Marvel wanted to tell. Now that those stories are over, and writers have more liberty to tell their own stories, the characters will find their heroism again, no doubt. But for me personally, I still think of Mephisto when I see Spider-man. I think of the former happiness of Peter and MJ when Peter pursues other women. I can't look at Aunt May. And when I see Reed, I still see Goliath. Maybe someday I'll be able to look at these examples and blame the skrulls, or some other plot devise - time will tell.


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