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Post By
Menshevik

In Reply To
Blue Beetle

Subj: Re: Revenge origins/loss of a loved one origins, a list in Marvel Preview#20, can anyone n
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 04:34:45 am EDT
Reply Subj: Re: Revenge origins/loss of a loved one origins, a list in Marvel Preview#20, can anyone n
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:00:45 pm EDT

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> Actually, in the Wasp's origin story, Janet's father Vernon Van Dyne was murdered by an escaped criminal from the plante Kosmos which provides her with her motivation (quote: "I shall dedicate my life to finding his murderer! [...] I wish I could help track down all the criminals, the human wolves who prey on honest people!") And in a flashback earlier in that same story, Hank Pym's first wife, Maria Trovaya, was murdered by secret policemen behind the Iron Curtain, after which he goes on to rant "I'll make them pay" etc.)


Wow - I guess I missed all that. Was it in the Tales to Astonish stories?

In the early Avengers stories, Janet was a hero because Hank was. Or at least it seemed that way to me. I never got a revenge vibe from Jan, ever. Or from Hank, for that matter.


> > Hulk
>
> In Bruce Banner's retconned origin, his father murdering his mother was a contributing factor to the psychological condition that gave rise to the Hulk.


Retcons. Bah, humbug.


> > Vision
> > Hawkeye
> > Scarlet Witch
>
> Dou you think Quicksilver had a revenge motive his sister didnÄt or did you just forget him?


I forgot him. I knew I was forgetting someone. 8\-\)


> Well, not quite. Hank and Jan had full-blown revenge motives, Tony Stark was at least partially motivated by revenge (see below), and the Black Widow originally had become a Soviet secret agent in putative revenge for the death of her husband. But the choice of the name "Avengers" still is a rather strange one...


I dispute the Tony Stark contention. It's not as if he went into battle yelling, "For Yinsen!" 8\-\)


> It was at least a strong contributing reason in Iron Man's case (quotes from the origin story: "You will not have died in vain, my friend! I swear it! The Iron Man swears it!" and "Now, Professor Yinsen, rest easy! You, who sacrificed your life to save mine, have been avenged!")


Yinsen mattered in that first story to the same extent Erskine mattered in the Captain America origin. Emotional resonance was certainly there. But Tony didn't continue being Iron Man so he could avenge Yinsen.

In the case of Batman, or the Punisher, the dead family members are frequently on the hero's mind, with the deaths fueling the heroics. Such wasn't the case for Tony, and certainly wasn't for Hank and Jan, as I had never even heard of these deaths until you told me about them, and I've read quite a lot of Silver Age Marvel.




--
"We ask merely a man's worth... not the accident of his condition."
Henry Pym, Avengers #58, 1968 - "Even an Android Can Cry" (Roy Thomas)


> > Actually, in the Wasp's origin story, Janet's father Vernon Van Dyne was murdered by an escaped criminal from the plante Kosmos which provides her with her motivation (quote: "I shall dedicate my life to finding his murderer! [...] I wish I could help track down all the criminals, the human wolves who prey on honest people!") And in a flashback earlier in that same story, Hank Pym's first wife, Maria Trovaya, was murdered by secret policemen behind the Iron Curtain, after which he goes on to rant "I'll make them pay" etc.)
>
>
> Wow - I guess I missed all that. Was it in the Tales to Astonish stories?

That was all from TtA #44, with Jan's first appearance.
>
> In the early Avengers stories, Janet was a hero because Hank was. Or at least it seemed that way to me. I never got a revenge vibe from Jan, ever. Or from Hank, for that matter.

Well, I think by that time the revenge/loss of a loved one origin was already such a well-established trope that I think that they used it here reflexively and then Stan Lee thought: Why not be different? And from then on wrote Jan and Hank more like a couple from a screwball comedy (maybe Katherine Hepburn and Cary Grant in "Bringing Up Baby", where you have a stolid male scientist and a vivacious society girl).

BTW, Amazing Spider-Man starts as a revenge origin (Spider-Man first decides to go after criminals because the burglar killed his uncle), but then in a classic twist pulls the rug from under Peter and his assumptions when he discovers that Uncle Ben's death is actually (also) his own responsibility. So it takes an existing stereotype and transcends it.

>
>
> > > Hulk
> >
> > In Bruce Banner's retconned origin, his father murdering his mother was a contributing factor to the psychological condition that gave rise to the Hulk.
>
>
> Retcons. Bah, humbug.

LOL
>
>
> > > Vision
> > > Hawkeye
> > > Scarlet Witch
> >
> > Dou you think Quicksilver had a revenge motive his sister didnÄt or did you just forget him?
>
>
> I forgot him. I knew I was forgetting someone. 8\-\)
>
>
> > Well, not quite. Hank and Jan had full-blown revenge motives, Tony Stark was at least partially motivated by revenge (see below), and the Black Widow originally had become a Soviet secret agent in putative revenge for the death of her husband. But the choice of the name "Avengers" still is a rather strange one...
>
>
> I dispute the Tony Stark contention. It's not as if he went into battle yelling, "For Yinsen!" 8\-\)

Well, he was still too busy getting to learn to walk and fight in his suit. (I love the scene where he saws a hole into a (by the looks of it, wooden) door to open it instead of simply smashing through it).
>
>
> > It was at least a strong contributing reason in Iron Man's case (quotes from the origin story: "You will not have died in vain, my friend! I swear it! The Iron Man swears it!" and "Now, Professor Yinsen, rest easy! You, who sacrificed your life to save mine, have been avenged!")
>
>
> Yinsen mattered in that first story to the same extent Erskine mattered in the Captain America origin. Emotional resonance was certainly there. But Tony didn't continue being Iron Man so he could avenge Yinsen.

Well, Yinsen's death at any rate was a stronger motivating factor than Erskine's - Steve Rogers was already motivated to fight against the Nazis, that was why he volunteered to have the superhero formula used on him in the first place. BTW, Tony of course also had a bit of a motivation from his own injury by that Vietnamese booby-trap, and at first Iron Man was certainly the Marvel superhero most involved in the Cold War etc.
>
> In the case of Batman, or the Punisher, the dead family members are frequently on the hero's mind, with the deaths fueling the heroics. Such wasn't the case for Tony, and certainly wasn't for Hank and Jan, as I had never even heard of these deaths until you told me about them, and I've read quite a lot of Silver Age Marvel.

Like I said, I think revenge origins by that time already were so commonplace that Stan wanted to try a different, less-used angle.


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