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Post By
Blue Beetle

In Reply To
mjyoung

Subj: Re: Disagree, Re: Fave Character + Good Art = Must Buy?
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 05:11:25 pm EDT (Viewed 100 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Disagree, Re: Fave Character + Good Art = Must Buy?
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 01:16:01 pm EDT (Viewed 128 times)


> Poor writing is your opinion, something you have to leave out of this discussion.


No. There is writing we don't like because of style and there is writing that is just piss poor. Loeb is piss poor. For God's sake, each issue is Red Hulk beating someone up and everyone wondering who he is. Again and again and again. Even as a kid I would have dropped this comic.


>
> People liked Hush, and it was good for what it was.


They liked it because it was Batman + Jim Lee.


> Red Hulk is selling well for a variety of reasons. The mystery of who and what the Red Hulk is, the creative team behind it, the showdowns between the characters, etc. If the current Hulk series has bad writing (in the eyes of the fans), then you will see it lose readers.


No I won't. The artist is popular and there's a Hulk appearing. It will sell no matter what.


>
> Allstar Batman and Robin is just like Red Hulk.


You lost me. The comic you mention is Batman + Jim Lee. It had to sell and it does. It's also Frank Miller, who has some sort of weird cult status. But he lost a lot of his rep with the second Dark Knight book. Even so, the book must sell, and it does. It's Batman + Jim Lee.


> > If the writing is poor and the book sells, then it must be the character and the art that matter.
>
> Again, you are using your opinion of what is poor writing:.


There are craftsmanship standards of writing, and there are stylistic standards. Stylistic standards are subjective. Craftsmanship standards are objective. Loeb is a poor craftsman.

"Look! It's the Red Hulk!"
(clobber)
"Who was that guy?"

That's the entire plot of the first four issues of the comic. This is poor craftsmanship.


> The Morrison Seven Soliders example doesn't work here, because they were missing the most important thing, characters.


OK. I'll set that aside. Unfortunately there aren't any other examples to use, because Morrison is always handed top properties and top artists. He can't fail. He could phone it in and sell big numbers.


> > Those artists are popular. Not to the level of Jim Lee, but they're popular.
>
> Are they? Khoi Pham has only done a few issues of any title. I wouldn't put them in the same league as Frank Cho, Finch, McNiven, Yu, Deodato, Bagley, etc. What's an example of a non popular artist?


Their style is popular. That's why they get the job. Marvel knows their style sells. The average fan opens the comic, looks at the art, checks which characters are on the page, and buys the comic.


> The book dropped 10% on McDuffie's first issue. Meltzer had the series selling around 125K or so, while McDuffie is around 90K.


People obviously saw it as a good jumping off point. Previous arc was over.


> > None of these sell greatly. They get critical acclaim but not high sales. (I'm limiting my comments to the monthly pamphlets. I believe some of these may sell well as TPB's.)
>
> Ok, those series sell great in TPB's, and are continously the number one sellers each month. I think Y the Last Man always has it's first tpb on the top 10 since release or something.


TPB sales are governed by different realities. I would say it's certainly true that where TPB sales are concerned, the writing is very important.


> > > The current Buffy series is a perfect example of my ranking system. Buffy is the primary selling point, but having writers like Whedon and BKV is the second selling point. Georges Jeanty was a mediocre artist (in terms of sells).
> >
> > That comic doesn't sell greatly as a monthly pamphlet. It may sell tremendously as a TPB. I don't know.
>
> Ranked 12th for June. Issue 15. I would say that is selling great.


OK. I concede that one. I had no idea the book was selling so well. I would sample it, but the art doesn't appeal to me.




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