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Post By
mjyoung

In Reply To
Blue Beetle

Subj: Re: Disagree, Re: Fave Character + Good Art = Must Buy?
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 06:06:07 pm EDT (Viewed 106 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Disagree, Re: Fave Character + Good Art = Must Buy?
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 05:11:25 pm EDT (Viewed 101 times)


> > Poor writing is your opinion, something you have to leave out of this discussion.
>
> > People liked Hush, and it was good for what it was.
>
> They liked it because it was Batman + Jim Lee.
>
When it was Superman and Jim Lee the next year with a different writer, people didn't like the story and it dropped dramatically in sales.

> > Red Hulk is selling well for a variety of reasons. The mystery of who and what the Red Hulk is, the creative team behind it, the showdowns between the characters, etc. If the current Hulk series has bad writing (in the eyes of the fans), then you will see it lose readers.

> No I won't. The artist is popular and there's a Hulk appearing. It will sell no matter what.

How did the Hulk sell when Deodato was on art? Not that great.

> > Allstar Batman and Robin is just like Red Hulk.

> You lost me. The comic you mention is Batman + Jim Lee. It had to sell and it does. It's also Frank Miller, who has some sort of weird cult status. But he lost a lot of his rep with the second Dark Knight book. Even so, the book must sell, and it does. It's Batman + Jim Lee.

The comparison fits because they are both books with A-list artists, with popular characters, with popular writers, and people complain that both books suck. Yet both sell great.

> > > If the writing is poor and the book sells, then it must be the character and the art that matter.
> >
> > Again, you are using your opinion of what is poor writing:.

> There are craftsmanship standards of writing, and there are stylistic standards. Stylistic standards are subjective. Craftsmanship standards are objective. Loeb is a poor craftsman.

> "Look! It's the Red Hulk!"
> (clobber)
> "Who was that guy?"
>
> That's the entire plot of the first four issues of the comic. This is poor craftsmanship.

He knows exactly what he is doing, and his stories are usally written very well from a structural standpoint. The fact that you don't like his stories is something different.

> > The Morrison Seven Soliders example doesn't work here, because they were missing the most important thing, characters.

> OK. I'll set that aside. Unfortunately there aren't any other examples to use, because Morrison is always handed top properties and top artists. He can't fail. He could phone it in and sell big numbers.

How about Grant Morrison and Tony Daniels on Batman? Tony Daniels wasn't exactly an A-list artist.

How about Bendis on Ultimate Six with Hairsine, or Ultimate Origins with Jackson Guice? Or even Alias with Gaydos? None of those artist are A-lists, and yet they all sold well for what they were.

> > > Those artists are popular. Not to the level of Jim Lee, but they're popular.
> >
> > Are they? Khoi Pham has only done a few issues of any title. I wouldn't put them in the same league as Frank Cho, Finch, McNiven, Yu, Deodato, Bagley, etc. What's an example of a non popular artist?
>
> Their style is popular. That's why they get the job. Marvel knows their style sells. The average fan opens the comic, looks at the art, checks which characters are on the page, and buys the comic.

How different is the style between Billy Tan and Jim Calafiore? I would think that they have similar styles, yet one is an unpopular artist.

The artists on the Avengers books have been pretty valid, so I don't see your point here.

> > The book dropped 10% on McDuffie's first issue. Meltzer had the series selling around 125K or so, while McDuffie is around 90K.
>
> People obviously saw it as a good jumping off point. Previous arc was over.

Ok, if that's the case, then story plays a part in people's decision to pick up a book, and it's a pretty big part. Yet you never mentioned it in your criteria before?

But in reality, people picked up the book because of Meltzer, and they dropped it when he left. When Marvel sells the tpbs for these books, the biggest name is Brad Meltzer (or Whedon), they even create a bookstore version of the tpbs (as opposed to just a comicstore version) that has the writers names taking up half the cover.

When you see the creative team on a comic, which name is first? Which creator has the most influence on a title?

> TPB sales are governed by different realities. I would say it's certainly true that where TPB sales are concerned, the writing is very important.

So TPB's readers have different criteria for picking up a title than those that read the monthlies? I don't see that.

But still, I find your original belief that most people dismiss the writers to be wrong.

Besides Loeb (who you obviously dislike), can you name another writer for your example?


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