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Post By
Reverend Meteor

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689
In Reply To
Iron Man Unit 007

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,843
Subj: Re: Vision and the Torch
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 at 09:18:51 am EST (Viewed 448 times)
Reply Subj: Vision and the Torch
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 at 06:13:37 am EST (Viewed 482 times)

    Going off some dusty memories but Johnny Storm was called the Human Torch by Stan Lee as they apparently didn't want to think of another name to use and that Marvel didn't at the time want to bring back any of the golden age characters like Torch, Cap and Namor.

    Then fan demand spoke and we get Cap retconned into being on ice since the war and Namor wandering amnesiac until Johnny stumbled across him.

    But the Torch was left behind until Immortus gives Vision a journey of "Discovery" and we learned that Vision is really a reformatted Torch.

    Ultron forces Torch's creator to reformat his body and remove the flame powers and give him density control, the solar jewel on the head, the laser eyes, but it was Ultron that had to erase his memory banks and program him with Simon's brain waves. Thus the Torch was considered dead.

    Yet things didnt seem right on that origin trip that Vision had as the Torch was supposedly buried in the funeral scenario of the Mad Thinker that trapped Toro and led to Toro's demise, a demise that made no sense by the way. How does someone with flame powers and can absorb flame perish in a fiery explosion? Plus there is the abandoned plot thread of the Professor Raymond from Power Pack who exhibited flame powers....

And you mentioning Mr. Raymond gives me the perfect excuse to work in my fanwank theory that Frankie Raye is really Toro's daughter and that was Byrne's plan all along. The Power Pack issues with Mr. Raymond hint that Raymond is Toro (Thomas Raymond) and Frankie's father. But back in Byrne's Fantastic Four the clues were there. Frankie's step father was Phineas Horton living under the name Thomas Raye. Toro's father Fred was Horton's lab assistant and Horton may have felt responsible that his experiments led to Fred and Nora's son having the exact same powers as the robot he built.

Byrne was working towards some revelation on Toro being Frankie's father. And who does Byrne reintroduce in his Avengers West Coast...Toro's widow Ann Raymond. We were never told who Frankie's mother was either except that she was supposedly married to Phineas/Thomas (who even Frankie admitted married late in life) and that she was dead. We knew Phineas hypnotized Frankie to keep forgetting about her powers so I'm assuming Phineas hypnotized Ann as well and she doesn't remember Frankie. Horton for whatever reason took sole responsibility for this girl who was the daughter of his robot's ward Toro.

Either that or Toro fooled around on Ann and Phineas ended up raising Toro's bastard daughter. But I lean more towards Ann even though it makes less sense.

    So there was apparently a Torch in a grave and a Torch reformatted into the Vision. I liked the explanation that was given that Ultron built the Vision from spare parts left over from the Torch being built. That made sense.

I did too. I did not like Vision being Jim.

    Then came Avengers Forever were Immortus is again used....and he temporally split Torch into two Torches, one becomes the Vision one remains the Torch thus the initial origin story of Vision is preserved.

yeah I hated that revelation. I could have lived with Vision being the Torch or not being the Torch. But this way of keeping both ideas was really crappy. Now neither of them is particularly unique.

    What a Gordian knot the Torch has become.

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