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America's Captain 

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139
In Reply To
Iron Man Unit 007

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,839
Subj: Re: uhm...Engleheart retcon of the Vision?
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 at 07:56:52 am EST (Viewed 448 times)
Reply Subj: uhm...Engleheart retcon of the Vision?
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 at 11:13:06 pm EST (Viewed 454 times)

    As I recall all we knew of Vision at that point was he was apparently built and unleashed by Ultron. Engleheart gave us the supposed origin of Vision being a reformatted Torch.

We didn't need to know that. Ultron made him. Who cares what he made him out of? What was Ultron made of? Oh I know - one of the Red Skull's Sleeper robots! How did we survive all this time without that information? Easy - we survived because we don't need to know.

    I say supposed in that we now know differently.

    Now that the time it was a nice, neat wrap to the Android Torch and since Marvel had for the most part killed or retired its Golden Age WW2 characters and they had a Torch with Johnny Storm, well I doubt Stan Lee gave it much consideration and just said "Go ahead"

Yes, but if Roy Thomas had wanted to do that, he would have. He's the most likely person ever to have thought of that. He's a Golden Age fan.

What galls me here is that no one at Marvel cared about respecting Roy Thomas's greatest character. It's like it was personal and vindictive. And has continued to this day to be personal and vindictive.

Suppose I try to be generous and say Englehart/Stern/Byrne were trying to make the Vision more interesting. You don't do that by changing the character's origin. You do it by giving him more interesting rogues and putting him in the middle of more fascinating plots.

Oh wow! He was the Human Torch! Now we can give him Torch rogues and rekindle Torch plot lines! Did that happen? No.

Oh wow! He has Simon Williams's brain patterns! Now we can give him Simon Williams's rogues and rekindle Simon Williams's plot lines! Did that happen? No. We saw the Grim Reaper pop up but he was never perceived as a Vision rogue. He was a Wonder Man rogue.

The retcons had no purpose but to disrespect Roy Thomas and I guess to eliminate another character (The Human Torch) whom no one was thinking about any way.

    Yet still why would Immortus, Guardian of Time be so keen on letting Vision see his origin and then officiate the wedding of Vision/Wanda and as I recall Mantis/Swordsman at the same time? Immortus was once Kang and while supposedly reformed, he does see a larger picture and surely has secret plans running in the back ground.

That should have been obvious, yes. He's a bad guy.

    Then for years Wanda has a relatively happy life until Vision is abducted, taken apart and erased only to be rebuilt into a super powered form of DATA from TNG. I say that since Vision was now even more emotionless then when he first appeared and his skin was pale white like Data's.


    Wanda then goes even more crazy when Simon refuses to give his brain patters again, not realizing the reason why nor giving him the chance to explain as she dropped a mountain on him.

Because the underlying premise was that Simon William's brain patterns were the only things that made the Vision a sapient, conscientious, empathetic, and loving entity. We should remember, perhaps, that Simon has almost always been written as a vain and self-centered guy.

    She is then taken over by an ancient parasite, then becomes one of the brides of Set in Atlantis Attacks and then her kids are erased and revealed as parts of Mephisto. So yeah at this point her sanity goes the way of the do-do bird and now he is easily taken under control of Immortus for his own plans.

    So basically for all that time, Vision was essentially a pawn albeit unknowingly of Immortus, and so was the Torch albeit in a smaller way. Immortus splits Torch into two and lets the original rest in a grave for years while the copy becomes the Vision.


    As to that control crystal that Vision yanked out of himself, I am certain Ultron placed it there, as there is no such thing in Jim. As to why it took Vision so long to remove it, it was technically a part of him and I suspect there were some Ultron Imperatives prevent him until his expanded mindset at the end of that story overcame them, plus at that point it was malfunctioning so logic would dictate he remove the faulty part. At that point his voice became more human and his personality also came fully online.

In other words he became more like Simon Williams. (sigh)


Incidentally, the Golden Age Human Torch was a sapient, conscientious, empathetic, and loving character. He never had anyone's brain patterns inserted. If Marvel really wanted to handle the Torch and the Vision in conjunction with one another, all they had to say was, "The Vision was originally the Human Torch. He would be the Human Torch again (mentally and emotionally) if this gem were removed. So let's remove the gem and have the Torch persona emerge completely. Wanda this may be jarring for you and the Vision but we think you both can handle it. The Vision has expressed a deep desire to have this done."

See? Why do we need Simon Williams?


The only character who gained anything by all this was WONDER MAN. He must have been somebody's pet character.

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