Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

Marvel Universe >> View Post
Post By
Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Subj: What I understood [BIG SPOILER]
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 at 07:06:58 am EDT (Viewed 73 times)
Reply Subj: Re: My problem with the plot [BIG SPOILER]
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 05:01:30 pm EDT (Viewed 85 times)

Previous Post

Not sure a plot hole leads to the plot being incoherent.


      The plot is extremely coherent.

    [BIG SPOILER - please, don't read before watching the movie]

    I don't understand how Natasha was able to betray Dreykov during Operation Budapest and become a SHIELD agent.

    Is it due to exceptional willpower?

She just could not kill him face to face. Wanting to kill him from accross the street with a bomb gets around that fine.

    The North Institute Disc containing the informations about the brainwashing process was stolen in 1995 when Natasha was only a child.

Maybe I read this differently but the Red Room and the process already existed in 1995. They did not steal the information on it. They stole stuff from SHIELD. I thought it was the info that they had on it though. Maybe I missed it though. Wife was using a blender during the start of the movie.

    Thus, Natasha should have been submitted to the same brainwashing process than Melina & Yelena. After all, the technology comes from the Winter Soldier Program and Bucky was already brainwashed & operational in the 1990s (he killed Tony's parents in 1991).

That is sort of addressed in the movie. I also would not think too much on it because it could simply be that Dracov wanted to do something similar but different.

Yelena comments about being forced to do things through chemical forcing as opposed to Nat who was behavioral. It could have been that Nat just missed that window.

I assumed there were different camps of it for testing purposes.

    In 2016, when Natasha met Dreykov, we could see that she had the same "pheromonal lock" than Melina & Yelena, impying that she went through the same brainwashing process than them.

They are separate things. All of them had the pheromonal lock regardless of the method that turned them into killers.

    But the only way to free a Black Widow is the "red dust" and this antidote was not known before 2016.

Not sure this would be shocking, why would he want his minions to be able to kill him? I missed if they stole it or it was made recently.

    So, how did Natasha free herself before Operation Budapest? How was she able to escape the Red Room? How come Dreykov never tried to use her as a double agent when she was working for SHIELD?

The pheromones just stopped you from being able to kill him, not working against him. And it seemed to be direct physical harm in his presence. As far as I could tell that part was a major loophole for him. A bomb across the street worked, but why not a snipper riffle from many buildings away instead of killing his daughter? That confused me a little. I mean he is in front of a big window regularly.

    Does it mean that the Red Room needed more than 20 years to read and understand the contents of a disc and that Black Widows were not brainwashed at the time of Operation Budapest? But then, in this case, why couldn't Natasha attack Dreykov in 2016 if she was never submitted to the brainwashing process to begin with?

No, the Red Room existed. The girls were taken for training right at the start of the movie and there were many girls already in the program.

So, they already had methods in place. The information in the disks helped them change and refine processes but that was mostly it. The program was in place for longer than that. And that seemed to be confirmed by other comments from older characters in the film from here or there.

Melina is much older than either but was trained in the Red Room, meaning it is older than that disk that they got.

    In my opinion, it is a plot hole.

I did not see things the way you did.

Not saying it was an intricate plot or greatest movie ever, but disagree with the analysis here. I could see criticism of the movie though and agreed with several of your other points above.

Like I said though, it is possible you paid more attention, watching on Disney Plus at home is nice, but it also means you do not get the theater sound (unless you havei t already) and the sounds of the general house can be distracting. Particularly kitchen noises and dogs.


The film is a spin-off of Winter Soldier, Civil War & Agent Carter.

The disk contains informations about the biochemicals that were used by HYDRA to obtain the mental conditioning of the Winter Soldiers.

It is not explicitely said but some of the events of the movie (the theft of the disk and Operation Budapest) are probably connected to a secret war between HYDRA (Alexander Pierce) & LEVIATHAN (Dreykov).

Melina is at the same time the scientist who re-engineered the process for Dreykov and one of the first Black Widows that were submitted to it. It is also clear that's the case of Yelena as well. Both Black Widows have been aware of their own servitude for a long time.

In the case of the Black Widow Program, the biochemicals don't stop you from thinking whatever you want but they stop you from doing anything that might be potentially harmful to your handlers.

During Operation Budapest, Natasha found the one & only way to circumvent the problem: she asked Hawkeye to blow up the building where Dreykov's daughter was, hoping that it would kill Dreykov himself at the same time.

Everything seems logical, right?

And, yet, when I think about the trajectories of Natasha & Dreykov from Operation Budapest to 2016, my gut tell me that there's something wrong or, at the very least, something that I don't understand (for example, does Natasha suffer from unexplained selective amnesia?)... The facts, the behaviour of the characters, their career, their personality... In my head, it doesn't match up... I would need more precise information to understand the internal clock of the movie and to appreciate its plot. That's why I think it is incoherent.

There is one main character whose internal clock I understand... Yelena. In her case, I have no problem at all.

Actually, in my opinion, the best part of the movie is the beginning, in Ohio. I wish that the movie would have been like this all the time. And this part was important to make me understand who is Yelena.

There's something funny: I reimagined the story without the involvement of Natasha, Rick Mason, Taskmaster and Ross. I didn't include the episode of Operation Budapest at all... With a few arrangements, it works. Lol! actually, in my case, it works much better! \:\-D

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 89.0 on Windows NT 4.0
Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2021 Powermad Software
All the content of these boards Copyright © 1996-2021 by Comicboards/TVShowboards. Software Copyright © 2003-2021 Powermad Software