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Post By
Michael

In Reply To
Menshevik

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,126
Subj: Re: Lesbian.
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 12:20:56 pm EST
Reply Subj: Re: Lesbian.
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 05:30:16 am EST (Viewed 41 times)


> >
> > > In alternate timelines and futures that are firmly grounded in a situation like the one we had in ASM pre-OMD(1), Peter and Mary Jane's marriage and relationship was very strong indeed. In the MC-2 Universe (Spider-Girl), Peter and MJ are a happy couple married for almost twenty years (AFAIK) now, while in the futures seen in ASM #500 and Spider-Man: Reign, Mary Jane was true to Peter until her death. So readers (especially if they like Peter and MJ as a couple) would naturally conclude that under normal conditions Mary Jane would continue to love Peter and that any break-up would be merely temporary. Also, if you worked in the "MJ-turns-gay" plot under the current status quo, the conclusion that her new-found lesbianism was caused by Mephisto could really not be avoided. People who think that Mephisto breaking up Peter and Mary Jane's marriage is Wrong and should be reversed will have no reason not to think the same thing about Mary Jane's new sexuality.
> > >
> > Well, you've argued that Marlo's new-found lesbianism wasn't caused by Moondragon, even though Heather has a history of tampering with people's minds to make them fall in love with her. So, other readers would argue that MJ's lesbianism wasn't caused by Mephisto. (Of course, Marlo's lesbianism disappeared when the plot called for her to get back with Rick and the same thing would probably happen to MJ.)
>
> As far as I can see these "other readers" would in effect be a subset of those readers who do not want to see Peter and Mary Jane reunited anyway and thus would have a vested interest to believe that MJ was completely turned off Peter and all men for a reason other then Mephisto's influence in the face of the evidence from the timelines cited above that were not altered by Mephisto. Not to mention OMD itself, which established that it required a world-altering spell to get rid of MJ and Peter's special love.
>
> Re. Heather and Marlo:
> Well, although it is hard to prove a negative and with any telepath there's always a lingering suspicion (that includes Professor X (Amelia Voght!), Emma Frost (at least in the eyes of those who dislike her pairing with Scott Summers) and Jean Grey (if her clone "made things happen", how can we be sure she didn't?)), I think it can be argued that one can be forgiven for believing this was not the case with Moondragon, especially as this would seem to be what the writer of this entire story intended. Falling in love with another woman came as much as a shock and surprise to Heather as it did to Marlo, and of course Phyla, who has this whole Cosmic Awareness thing going for her, immediately was certain that Heather was lying when she told Rick and Marlo that she had subconsciously made Marlo fall in love with her. But of course there is no way of being certain in such a story.
Yeah,but later writers confused the issue by having Heather hide from Phyla the fact that the Dragon's influence over Heather was returning. If Phyla didn't notice the Dragon's influence over Heather, then she also might not have noticed Heather's influence over Marlo. Also,if the Dragon's influence started returning before Marlo started falling in love with Heather, then maybe the Dragon DID influence Heather to make Marlo fall in love with her.
I think they just said that Maddie's influence caused Scott to lose the duel with Storm. Of course, Whedon had Emma imply that Scott lost the duel on his own. I think the problem with blaming Scott's feelings for Emma on Emma's telepathy is that presumably Jean would be able to tell if Scott was being influenced. (Of course, keep in mind that Jean can plant telepathic suggestions in Jessica Jones that will snap her out of mind control but can't do the same to Scott for some reason.)
> Also, did Marlo's lesbianism disappear when Peter David decided to reunite her with Rick? No more than her heterosexuality disappeared when she fell in love with Heather (there was nothing in the story that she was now turned off all men, she just - for a time - felt more in love with Heather than with Rick). Or than her bisexuality would disappear if she now decided to become a nun.
>
She thinks it was mind-control. I'd call that disappearing.
> With the "MJ turns 100% lesbian" scenario things would be a fundamentally different because thanks to OMD it is already clearly established without any element of doubt that Peter and Mary Jane's feelings were significantly altered by Mephisto going back to over two decades readers' time (they did not marry back when they did in the original continuity and neither did they marry at a later point), so you could not argue about the whether or not Mephisto changed MJ's emotional outlook and reality in general, but you would have to prove conclusively that MJ's newfound lesbianism was NOT caused by him. (Which of course is not exactly made easier by the fact that at present no-one in the stories is even aware of Mephisto having changed reality).
>
Yeah,but OTOH, we're supposed to believe that when Peter does something morally wrong in the current continuity, it's because of his own character flaws, not because of Mephisto's influence. We're also not supposed to believe that the attraction between Peter and Lily, for example, is a result of Mephisto's influence.
Michael


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