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Member Since: Sat Oct 08, 2016
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Member Since: Sun Apr 19, 2020
Posts: 22
Subj: Re: Amazing Spider-Man#56: The Good Father?
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 at 12:57:32 pm EST (Viewed 120 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Amazing Spider-Man#56: The Good Father?
Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 at 02:30:09 am EST (Viewed 136 times)

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Totally respect that, but this is the thing... Norman should have *always* been concerned, albeit disappointed, with Harry. Just having that character wrinkle immediately adds texture to him. He shouldn't have to have magic Sin-Eating happen.

But to me even this is not enough. Even with this, what is anybody going to *do* with him? He's going to fight Peter again. And he might blow up someone like Jonah or MJ or May or Gwen or Ms. Lion or something, or drop 'em from a bridge or Goblin them up like Carlie or... yawn. I just kind of feel he's exhausted as a villain.

I *do* think this is an endemic problem with a lot of Marvel characters however - too much continuity which sags under the serial fiction, and either too little progression (I.e. nobody stays dead) or far too much to the extent that some things change too far. I've no idea WTF the X-Men have been, for example, for 20 years now.

To be fair I've felt that writers like Slott and Spencer *have* tried to make real progress without taking the characters so far they may be something else but modern day comics writes big events and sometimes some gambles worked and some don't. The problem comes is when previous stories don't matter. If theirs don't matter why should I invest in yours? Because the next writer will tell me yours doesn't matter.

With Norman he was a classic 60's villain, then became a really good version of a Luthor style archetype Mastermind in the 90's, then he started escalating to EVERYTHING IS DOWN TO ME a tad too much in the 00's before Bendis and Millar and the 00's crowd decided to basically have him rule America. Which totally fit previous versions of him keeping him recognisable AND moving him on from Spidey. But then Slott decided to have bin Goblin King and frankly it was reductive. He's already been the secret mastermind of a million Spidey plots now - The Clone Saga, Marvel Knights, The Peter as Goblin story, Spider-Hunt, when he almost killed Flash... I didn't want to see him masterminding anything else and yet...

Then he becomes Carnage... He's a Goblin AND a Symbiote? Woopie! Anyway.

So sincere question. It's clear I would kill him, maybe having him redeem Harry in doing so, but I just don't think there's anywhere for him to go that isn't played out. But what would you do? Do you see a place for him? Genuinely interested to know.

(I know you're not disagreeing fully with me because you said fully Evil Norman is becoming unusable which is sort of my point but I'm also saying I don't think even a face turn for Norman can save the character if nobody knows where to take him)

Brilliant reply. I’m only on a mobile right now so I think I can only suggest what I think would work. I’d like Norman to see what his associates on other worlds are up to and how their grandiose schemes never work out for them. I’d like to see him scale back his activities to being a successful crimelord and industrialist. I want to see the Green Goblin as a chess player again not a cackling Bond villain. I feel Kingsley stole that mantle from him while Norman was supposed to be dead.
Also I’m not sure that making Norman remain cured isn’t a good idea. I don’t see him becoming a hero or even an anti-hero. I’d like to see an answer to the question of how Norman can live with his past actions if now he feels genuine guilt about them? If that means suiting up to be Green Goblin and dying heroically to try to put right what his life in the end stood for then that is a good ending. I think Norman being killed and becoming the Spectre to save as many lives as he has ruined is a great fate for the character. Clearly if he is now cleansed those things still happened but Norman would potentially never do them now. Therefore the only shot at redemption in an actual comicbook arc for the character is to make it so he is given a choice of heaven or hell. Good or bad, his decision.
Then if they want to bring back an evil Norman bring back the Spider-Man Norman who was smashed to pieces by Doc Ock, who is nearly identical to our own. Imagine the horror for a cleansed Norman facing his worst elements as a Spider person.
If after all this the dust settles our Norman is finally dead I’d hope the character development is strong enough that they don’t just bring him back again.
Show me evil has consequences and that good Norman has to make up for all he did when he was bad, an impossible task. Hell you could even call the arc, The Wolf You Feed.
I remember this quote from Stargate:

Shifu: Oma teaches that the true nature of a Man is decided in the battle between his conscious mind and the desires of his sub-conscious. Oma teaches that the evil of my sub-conscious is to strong to resist. The only way to win, is to deny it battle.

Dr. Jackson: You see the thing is, we can’t deny the battle against the Goa’uld forever. The information contained within your buried memories could really help us.

Shifu: You have chosen a path that leads to me because of this.

Dr. Jackson: Yes.

Shifu: You must release your own burden before you will find your own way again.

Dr. Jackson: Yeah, someone else once said that to me… thing is, this is my way. I chose this path to honor Sha’re’s strength, and ultimately it isn’t just about me, or you for that matter.

Shifu: I understand.

Dr. Jackson: The To’kra have a way for you to remember only certain things. How Goa’uld technology works, their weaknesses, and then afterwards, maybe Oma can help you forget again.

Shifu: If the instrument is broken, the music will be sour.

Dr. Jackson: The music does not play the musician.

Shifu: Normally there’s truth in that.

Dr. Jackson: Really? Good, because I really didn’t have any idea what I was talking about… All I know is that this is very important, or I wouldn’t ask.

Major Carter: What did you do to Daniel?

Shifu: Dreams sometimes teach. I am teaching him.

Major Carter: Teaching him what?

Shifu: That the true nature of a Man is determined in the battle between his conscious mind and his subconscious, and that the evil of my subconscious is to strong to resist.

Wouldn’t this pose a question about Norman that is a bit different to that recently posed of Doctor Octopus?

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