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Post By
seeker

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,976
In Reply To
Spider-Hulk

Subj: Greetings Spider-Hulk
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 08:53:57 pm EST (Viewed 191 times)
Reply Subj: Hulk Vs Thor my opinions (spoilers within)
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 09:41:36 am EST (Viewed 404 times)





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    I have to admit that I was left feeling somewhat dissatisfied after seeing Hulk vs Thor and also dissatisfied at Hulk vs Wolverine. I mean, the way they captured the Hulk was absurd, it was preposterous for want of a better term. Deadpool tranquilising him? What?! I mean, for one thing, even if Deadpool had ammo capable of breaking through the Hulk's hide, he'd need tranquiliser potent enough to put pod of Blue Whales out for the night... and even then... the Hulks system would just burn through it and he'd barely even feel drowzy! Also, if that was all it took to capture the Hulk... why did they even need Wolverine? They could have just shot him like Deadpool did anyway... apologies for rambling. Its just a very silly plot hole I had to point out.


Taking into context that they were having to move the film along within a limited time frame things like that I kind of sadly just ignore if necessary to move it along. I do think the Wolverine one was done with more respect toward both characters and had a better fight. I think the commentary made that clear. Overall though, I think Deadpool stole the show on that one. One thing I due wonder is the writers said they went back and added the Wolverine origin. Since they was supposed to be a good deal about the Hulk I wish they had not turned it into a Wolverine origin story or even a Hulk origin since both are so well-known. I would have liked some more detail about the Hulk such as how he even got in Canada. After all, how many times in popular media have the basic origins of both these characters been told?


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    HULK vs THOR

    When I got the DVD this was the first one I watched, because I was expecting something along the lines of Matrix Revolutions Neo vs Smith... epic! Instead what I saw was a one sided beat down. Now you'd probably think "What's his problem? He's a Hulk fan he should be happy!" Well, I tell the gods honest truth, I was not happy really. I actually felt that both Hulk and Thor ended up with egg on their faces as a result of the film. Sure it was an overall enjoyable film to me on a very base level, but as far as it being of any use to the characters it wasn't. Also the commentary was quite eye opening in places, the commentators seemed to revel in the fact Hulk was pretty much mauling the whole of Asgard.


That is what pours salt into the wound. One could excuse at face value that the writers tried to show both respectfully, but simple fouled the ball, but once you listen to the commentary they come off as deliberate making Thor and all of Asgard look all as incompetent. As they point out of the three characters Thor is the least well-known. So how does it make sense from a marketing stand point to have him do poorly? I would think overall this would only create less interest in the character. That and squeezing his entire cast in there with no background at all comes across as poorly as well.


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    But I need to make my point of I will be writing an essay at this rate. So what Hulk showed up for this film? It was more or less a Mindless Hulk due to separation. Whether Banner is removed from the Hulk via science, or magic, the result is the same. You cannot physically separate Banner away from the Hulk because they are pivotal parts of each other. So when you do separate, Banner starts dying, and eventually so does Hulk. So we have a Hulk free from all restraint and free from morals or any kind of restrictions that Banner offers. So essentially they have a Hulk that is theoretically untouchable in strenght as there is nothing to rein in his anger. Even slightly.


Thing is Thor has fought that version of the Hulk and done at least decently against it which doesn't make since if you know that story and then watch the film.


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    So Loki attacks after a week of battle, using a remote control Hulk. He pretty much crushes Volstagg, Fandrall, and Hogun. Fair enough, they're tough yes, but really I would expect Hulk in that kind of mood to just plow through them. Though when you listen to the commentary, they are utterly relishing the fact that Hulk has just squashed them. Which actually took me by surprise really. I didn't expect them to enjoy it THAT much if you see what I mean. Sure it was a great bit of animation the way the Hulk mulched Fandrall through the beam and things, but, wow they really enjoyed it. But realistically Hulk would be too much for the Warriors 3 to handle, I would think anyway.
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      Volstagg, Fandral, and Hogun are all great warriors, but considering the way Thor has torn through Asgard's mooks enough I would expect nearly any version of the hul to do that, but again the commentary comes across as bad.


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        As far as Baldur Vs Hulk goes... I don't mind saying it really irritated me no end that the commentary was like "oh he actually beats the Hulk here" when clearly Baldur looked like he had been through a cuisinart! What was the point? Seriously how childish is that? I just really think rather than laughing at Baldur getting the crap kicked out of him, it would have been better if they discussed how Baldur measures up to the Hulk rather than giggling like schoolboys at how Hulk was laying the smack down.


      Balder would loose as well. He would do better than anyone else save one of the big hitters because he is tougher and better than most Asgardians, but sill the way the commentary came across is who you described it: childish.


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        Then the actual fight with Thor that Hulk had was pure action but a one-sided beat down. I can't help think that the way they portrayed Thor was a lot OOC. Ok the initial exchange, I can understand Hulk clobbering Thor, that makes sense. Thor was trying to get some sense out of the Hulk, he didn't know that Banner wasn't in there, and Loki was pulling the strings. Though Loki speaks to Thor thru the Hulk. Then Loki proceeds to rain down, punch after punch, after punch on Thor. Which IMO is REALLY farfetched. As if Thor would just lie there and take a pummeling like that? It was totally OOC for Thor. Realising that Loki was somehow controlling the Hulk, IMO the Thor I have seen in the comics all these years would have fought back, HARD. But even when he did, Thor hit the Hulk in the face and head with Mjolnir several times and it barely did nothing to the Hulk! I mean, I'm sorry, Hulk fan or not, even I know that Hulk can't take several unanswered shots to the head one after the other with Mjolnir like he did and just carry on as normal. Mindless or not. Bearing in mind, Loki being there would have limited the Hulk's anger somewhat as Loki was controlling him. The retaliation by Thor SHOULD have been more effective than it was.


      Could Hulk have just taken head shots like that? I don't know. I'll leave that to you. Would Thor have just let anyone pound him like that. No, but the writers had it done anyway.

      As to Loki, I think his and rage as the Enchantress said was feeding the Hulk some. Loki was not trying to restrain it as much as Banner does, but Thor who battles monsters on an almost daily basis should have done better.


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        Also when Hulk pounced Thor through that demolished tower and then tried to pick up Mjolnir, Thor was down for several seconds there before he called Mjolnir back. Now I mean, had Loki been smart, he would have finished off Thor there and then. Because in that initial exchange Thor barely did anything to the Hulk except tickle him slightly. Would the Loki of old really waste time with Mjolnir when he saw he had his chance to kill Thor? I think not. So again for me, there is another glaring hole in the established character of Loki.


      Loki has always had a somewhat obessions with Mjolnir so it is possible he would interrupt a fight with Thor if he thought Thor was down for good. And considering how long Thor took to get up and how Thor just let Loki pound on him I think that as somewhat justified.


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        So then Thor gets up and strikes the Hulk with his lightning, THEN tosses Mjolnir at him. So there is Hulk on his hands and knees, after taking some punishment like that, despite the fact he is at this point in the film mindless, Hulk should have been down after that for a few seconds. That was a HELL of a lot of power to just shrug off and come back from. Yet he didn't go down, and Thor, instead of pressing the attack and subduing the Hulk there and then when he has the chance, who Thor knows from much experience IS a huge threat to Asgard, instead, Thor kindly asks him "Will thou yield Loki?" All he needed was a please in there and quite possibly Hulk may have given in... sorry, but that was ridiculous! That was utter ridiculousness. Thor should have known that asking Loki to yield when he controls the Hulk, was a waste of time. Is it just me or is that a HUGE hole in the plot of the film there?


      To tell the truth, for Thor's big attack it was somewhat disappointing. That attack was probable medium at best. Yet, through the entire film that was the best Thor offered. Thor asking Loki to yield might be something he had done, but ...


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        Its after this point that Thor now truly faces the mindless Hulk with his limitless strength and Thor gets treated like a punchbag. Now, I believe, that Hulk only gets enough strength to fight his peers (good guys and scumbags) and toss them around like ragdolls... Not enough to beat them to death. Which if you consider the way the Hulk's powers work, he could very easily do. I always think that Hulk doesn't have enough strength to beat somebody to death because he doesn't want to. Bruce is essentially a good guy and that is reflected even through the Hulk. Neither wants to be a killer. Hence, there is a mental rather than physical limit to the Hulk's strength. I believe that is as good an explanation as any as to how one moment he can pull landmasses together, and another moment he is only marginally stronger than Hercules. So for me that makes good sense. Obviously a mindless Hulk is under no such limit as that. He WOULD possess the strength to beat somebody to death, immaterial of who it was IMO. Wheras other incarnations would not.


      Pretty much every writer has portrayed the Hulk's physical strength topping out a little above Thor even in his mindless forms his strength had never gotten a huge mount above Thor. So for Thor to be dominateated so when he has fought beings stronger than him and done better does not make sense.


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        Its not so much that the Hulk very nearly killed Thor that rattles me because IMO a mindless Hulk would possess the strength to do it, what upsets me are two things;

        1) Thor barely offered any resistance following Hulk getting up from his hands and knees, even after realising that it wasn't the Hulk of old he was up against.
        2) Thor had to be saved by Amora.


      Seeing how this was the first fight and in stories like this both comics, book, and film the good guy looses the first fight that was to be expected even if it was poorly done. It is how he faired poorly as well in the second one that makes the film truly unwatchable for me.


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        I mean I can tell that the Hulk was obviously hurting him bad, its just that Thor basically gave him the chance to do it. Asgard was under huge threat and Thor will fight like a lion to protect Asgard, yet, he didn't here.


      Just like Hulk, Thor has his own form of the heroic resolve where he unleashes divine fury one whomever he if fighting. Fighting mortal Thor holds back, but as Thor: Ages of Thunder showed Thor was once a much more brutal warrior and when Asgard is truly endager Thor unleashes that fury and can bring down things even bigger then him. Yet, he lost badly and was portrayed as nothing more than a guy who threw around some lighting.


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        And there's another great hole in the plot after Hulk left Thor laying. Hela came to try and claim him, hang on, wouldn't it be Valhalla that Thor would go on his death? As he was a warrior who died in battle? Have I fount a flaw Thor fans?


      Technically, Thor should have gone to Valhalla, but Hel has always had a claim over nearly anyone who has died and has always tried to break the rules as far as Thor is concerned. Of course, considering Loeb is writting Ultimate Hel as the ruler of Valhalla and the work Yost put into this film I don't think he bothered to check that fact.


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        Its just very you know, distubring the way Thor got beat on. The way I see it, Thor should be able to land the more blows, given the Hulk is larger than he is, you can't really miss, plus Thor's skills in battle. But the power behind the blows goes to the Hulk. That is how I see a typical Thor vs Hulk fight... which is probably fair, this fight was a case of, Hulk landed the most blows, and the most powerful ones. One sided beat down. Unfair.


      I was expecting the last fight to be much more epic. I was expecting lighting, crumbling buildings, the works. If you have ever watched Superman/Doomsday or JLU on Cartoon Network and seen some of those fights I found those to be much better. And considering the time limits of those episodes the stories to be better as well.


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        Then there is the rematch in Hel. Here, Thor gets a much better showing I felt against the Hulk compared to the last one that is, but even then, it was a poor showing overall. Thor used some lightning and even I think broke the Hulk's arm with one of his strikes. Now, I know Hulk can heal from broken bones, but, healing from a broken arm is going to take even the Hulk a few minutes. Hulk seemed to recover from his arm virtually instantly. Which is a gross exaggeration of his healing, especially when compared to how easily Deadpool tranqd the Hulk in the vs Wolverine film. Then after more lightning Hulk tackles Thor into a Hela statue and again lands punch after punch after punch leaving Thor down on the ground again. Loki then intervenes, using his magic, Thor joins in with his powers, and Hulk breaks free. In the commentary they say it made Hulk angry enough to break free. Bull manure!


      Hulk's healing various from taking minutes to a few second. But what I didn't get is why Thor didn't try any of his more powerful attacks or again why he just let Hulk pound on him again. I was expecting Thor to really pull out all the stops, but the writers were once again laughing through the whole thing.


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        I would say, Hulk could overcome either Thor or Loki's power individually, but together, Sorry but I don't rate his chances very high, even in Mindless Hulk incarnation. Its just really far fetched to think that he could. He might be able to, under extreme conditions eg Rick will die if he doesn't or something... but, in a general fight like that, no chance.


      Loki's sorcery makes him a near equal to Thor, but the best he can do is a brief prison and Thor's best idea is the same attack he tried a few minutes ago? Why did he think it would be any different? Could Hulk have taking them both at once? If you are of the school of thought that Hulk truly has unlimited strength and stamina maybe after a prolonged battle. After this short thing no. If you are of the school of thought that Hulk, while very powerful with vast reserves, still has limited strength and stamina then I don't think he should have beaten them.


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        So there it is, I don't know what else to add except that they were very inconsistent with their portrayal of the Hulk. And they were also very wrong in how they portrayed Thor. Even after a week of fighting Thor should not have been at THAT low a level. I mean don't get me wrong it was enjoyable and I felt their portrayal of the Hulk despite inconsistencies was fairly accurate to what he has done in the source material of the comics, but, the way they portrayed Thor was hilariously bad. Still, its entertaining to Hulk fans at a base level, but to me, it didnt' strike any chords above mindless smashing action. Which is disapointing. I enjoyed it, but, not above anything more than pure comic violence.


      I think what makes it worse is it is so radically different from the way they portrayed the Wolverine/Hulk fight. In it they state they deliberatly made it equal to please the fans. I don't see how they expected it to please Thor fans. It looks pretty, but that is about it.


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        I said earlier both characters were cheapened. I've discussed at length how Thor was cheapened, so how was Hulk cheapened? well... I'd look like a real tough guy too if I invaded an old people's home and started to thump around pensioners. By making Thor and the Asgardians a push over, they kinda made the Hulk look bad too IMO.


      The only being I am familiar with who did what the Hulk did is Mangog who has always struck me as displaying levels of strength then any version of the Hulk. The writers essentially took that character and made him green.




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        And Seeker... I have not forgot about your thread on the Battle Board... I will reply shortly to that will make a new thread for it. I've not been well lately, had a bad stomach. But wanted to get this done first.


      I'll check it out, but I may not be able to get to it tonight. I have work I have to do.

      In the end, do I think it is possible for Hulk tobeat Thor in his savage or mindless incarnations? Yes

      Did I expect Thor to win in this dvd? No

      Did I like this dvd? no

      Did they portray Thor well? I don't see how anyone with any basic knowledge of the characters and their history can say they did.

      Sif (by the writer's own admission) did the best yet if she had not talked, but had taken Hulk's head off it might have ended the film.

      They kept talking about how powerful these gods were supposed to be, but how was anybody not familiar with Thor supposed to really know that? The Warriors Three came off as worse than Wolverine. And take away his healing factor and he is barely more than human.



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