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Post By
djcc

In Reply To
Olympian

Subj: Re: Ares = Thor --how can anyone take Marvel or Marvel's characters and storylines credibly when
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 09:56:05 am EDT (Viewed 4 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Ares = Thor --how can anyone take Marvel or Marvel's characters and storylines credibly when
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 at 06:40:30 am EDT (Viewed 4 times)

Previous Post


    Quote:
    I'm not sure most fans liked the de-powering and dumbing-down of hercules, but at least there was an excuse for his de-powering when he was stripped of his immortality --that would be a credible reason for poorer showings and would not necessrily be because of the volatility and cyclical nature of comics -- and Hercules was not intended or introduced into the MU with the purpose of being the best or the top or an A-lister so any improvement on that and on his portrayals benefitted him,


Even before that. He barely had any say in the stats of affair of the Marvel Universe, despite Kirby and Lee making him every bit of Thor`s physical equal, with wrestling on his side. He was simply forgotten.

But you see, there is a difference in not liking a product and then doing what the majority has been doing, which is...


    Quote:
    how is raising concern about the quality of any product or character not being grown up? have you not, in your thread pointed to Hercules status, thus raising a concern? these portrayals happened how long ago, and yet you are now raising this example, i.e. concern? but voicing it to me and other concerned Thor fans who have as much input as you or any other boarder not employed by Marvel?


..this.

I am talking in general terms, obviously. I can voice my concern, but i would never, and never did, be rude or attack a writer just because i do not like the portrayal of a character or the status used. This board, have. In fact, it is well known over comic book internet fans, as doing it.

Jurgens, Busiek, Oeming, some editors, and so on. They were all mob`ed out here. With no excuse at all.


    Quote:
    thank you for raising your concern about Thor fans, and for I'd imagine your concerns also voiced to Marvel for portrayals you may not have liked --that's the spirit !


Thanks for missing the actual point of my post.

I didn't miss your point at all and nowhere do I advocate personal attacks on writers of Marvel --but anyone can express opinions about MU Reps perspectives and what they write ---we can separate the writer and the writing, and taking issue with what they write isn't attacking the writer unless the criticism includes personal slander --

your response was to the poster who pretty much advocated the position of "don't complain or take issue too much -- it's only comics, and, those responsible for producing them can take them in the directions as they see fit, and they will do what they want --if there are changes, accept them, everything has change and often it's not the change we want to see -try to keep that perspective and let things go, don't get too worked up over them"

did I misunderstand that?

to which you added an example of something you didn't agree with but as you say kept your criticism within limited parameters

am I still missing something?

I got your post and you and the original poster -- now you can get me

I've been buying and reading comics for over 40 years --as a kid I spent the only money I'd ever get on comics, because that's all I had -- I walked thru some of the worst neighborhoods to spend the only money I had to purchase them ---

I currently spend $200 -$300 monthly on Marvel comics

does this entitle me and others like me to be inappropriate? no

have I/most of us been inappropriate? no

do I think it's inappropriate for any boarder or boarders to express their thoughts about how they feel about their characters? no

do I think it's inappropriate to express those thoughts daily? no

should I or any reader express their thoughts when they don't like a story? a story arc? artistic portrayal? a trend? the raise in price? the treatment and response from MU when they don't respond or respond rudely? dismissively? condescendingly? heck, yes....

and try to get this...

anytime anyone puts anything into the public arena, they and their product are open to praise and to criticism and that's as much a fact and reality as they and their product -- their product is "the excuse"

is there appropriate vs inappropriate criticism? yes

but what is the cut-off? that's a little tougher to determine with some forms of criticism --if I say Brevoort is arrogant and condescending am I being inappropriate? mobbing on him? well if he is those, then no, but if he isn't those, then yes

if I see him that way and you don't? how to make that call...?

simple, and just like we're doing here --I say he is, and present my reasons why, and you say he isn't and your present your reasons why not...


and that's perfect

so you may call stuff here mobbing or attacking and that's your right to do so, but your examples supporting this assertion are general thus vague -- have some writers and editors been mobbed or attacked? perhaps by some boarders, but generally not and remember, this axiom is always in place:

anytime anyone produces and provides anything into the public domain them and their product are open for all sorts of praise and criticism -their product is the excuse...

this doesn't mean all praise, criticism and/or indifference are acceptable, but all of those are also as much a reality as what the original poster posted as well as what you and I are commenting on ---

and if you this.....

comment that what I'm posting is rude, well I think this...

"thorites should grow up and act like readers and not fanatics"

...is at least as rude and at least as much of an attack as the critique and the criticsm of concerns and criticisms Thor fans have for the writers and story lines they/we don't like

and broad-brushing everything (general terms) as though all stories and protryals are always somehow equal in quality, message, theme, presentation etc is a tenuous assertion to make -- in this case here, Thor fans are raising concerns about how the character is currently portrayed and the number of poor protrayals there have been recently, and asking what that means, and understandably so, how many more --this is even more understandable when MU reps make statements about Thor that portend the very real possibility and seemingly probability that there will be more such showings -- what would you expect the reaction would be to such statements?

isn't it also possible that poor portrayals and under-rating opinions of MU Reps are also attacks on the character they are subjected to those? and if several MU reps are doinbg that isn't that also, by your own definition, attacking and mobbing the character? do you honestly believe that MU Reps don't have their own preferences and prejudices?



take into account how many readers there are, and if some percentage raise their voices at the same time, the result will seem like a mobbing --but it's not necessarily a mobbing because the event and the reaction are concurrent, and the voicing of concern might just be justified..

quite franklly given that there might be what you seem so describe as a volatile and mob-mentality mood for a percentage of Thor fans, when any writer or MU Rep expresses an opinion like Bendis' during such a mood-time, wouldn't he or she possibly be intentionally fanning the flames of that mob-mood --

and given the type and nature of Brevoort's responses to questions about what is happening these days with Thor, well he absolutely mishandled the situation and only enflamed and intensified it

but his actions are all because of mobbing Thor fans? you do realize that there are people who set off chains of events, who do light the flame, so to speak, and they are as much responsible for a mobbing as anyone... yet you seem to give a pass to the MU folks

what do you realistically expect? people will voice their concerns, and some will be appropriate and some won't -- threatening and calling writers and MU Reps inappropriate names or misrepresenting them is inappropriate --commenting on their treatment and their opinons about characters? absolutely appropriate so long as the offensive language, the threats are not part of it --tossing a wide net to message the few fans who might be inappropriate or mobbing might be a tenuous effort

so yes, whenever anyone puts anything into the public arena they are open to any and all praise and criticism, and that comes with the whole package, that is "the excuse" -- yes there is appropriate and inapproriate criticism and sometimes the line is hard to find and define --- yes those who receive criticism sometimes receive justified criticism and sometimes not --and yes those who receive criticism sometimes even ignite and/or enflame and intensify the criticism and the mob mood


I do admit I didn't quite get this point of yours so let me ask you then: is criticisizing MU Reps generally defined as mobbing or is it generally unacceptable while criticisizing the criticisizers is not? if criticism of MU Reps is generally mobbing and attacking but criticizing criticizers is not isn't that "generally" walking the circle of hypocrisy?

and when people invest a lot of time and money into something? that would be part of the very definition of fanatic -asking them to just grumble and read on? "generally" defining at least some of them and what they do as mobsters and attackers, that is "generally" unrealistic at best, and "generally" runs into arrogance or worse


few if any on any board simply "attack" writers and artists without what they may believe to be justified, and raising concerns about what appears in any comic book or blog isn't always "attacking or mobbing" even if it is voiced by a number of people over a certain time period --aiming at the few inappropriate with a general criticism makes such an attempt tenuous at best -- casting a wide net generally catches more than just the fish one was casting the net for...


btw I remember a Hulk/Hercules story way way back (illustrated by Bill Everett) where Hercules was on a train on his way to meet some Movie Makers (unknown to him, Pluto) he would meet that would eventually land him in Pluto's Netherworld (this was a side story leading up to Thunder in the Netherworld) --it seemed at that time MU floated, or tested the waters concerning introducing Hercules into MU as character--not sure if their intent was to make him a main stream character or if they were just leading up to the main story, but if you read that issue, you might be able to get some sense they were toying with the idea of Hercules as a possible main character in MU --what happened after that is a matter for Stan Lee to clarify --but this issue was probably the first time Herc & Hulk fought, maybe around 1967..?






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