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Post By
Shango of The Oshiras

In Reply To
Would be Watcher

Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Subj: Re: The Problem Marvel has with Thor
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:57:48 am EST (Viewed 106 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The Problem Marvel has with Thor
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:46:08 am EST (Viewed 145 times)

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    Quote:
    Is this, they really don't have anyone who can truly stand up to him in terms of pure strength or even just raw power without them augmenting said opponent and thus reneging on what was previously cannonized.

I don't know how anyone can say that by looking at the last 30 years of comics. The number of character who can and have stand up to Thor without any plot devices are numerous. What you call "cannon" isn't some stone tablet upon which laws are written. There is fluidity.


    Quote:
    For instance, its a known fact that Loki had to augment The Silver Surfer to bring him even close to Thor's abilities, but Marvel now attempts to try and make it look like The Surfer is actually greater in terms of power than Thor.

Talk about living in the past. Yes, that is true, Surfer once was a far cry from what he became relatively speaking. The problem is, comics are by nature always in evolution. That it is "official", natural, or implicit, changes happens all the time. It's painfully clear surfer's place relative to Thor has evolved. Time did it's job.


    Quote:
    This is strictly the writers who chose to change what has already been established to fit their own will(and its also why Wolverine has like 13 origins). The easiest thing for Marvel to do would be to remember why Thor was originally created by Stan Lee,.. To be stronger than the hulk. Period. Point Blank. End of story. One day they'll get it right again.

It's also strictly the reader who chose to refuse the changes that were made over time. That too is a problem. Sure I think it's a big problem to have 13 origins and almost no continuity whatsoever. They should pick an origin and go with it for as long as they can and build upon what the previous writer did instead of retconing all they want all the time. That being said, asking for no change in origin ever is unreasonable. Characters need them from time to time whether officially, naturally or implicitly. It's not because there was no Crisis on infinite earth that changes for Thor, or other characters around Thor, aren't valid. The habit of calling something "right" because we like it more is typical among comic book fans. Some times what we like also make short work of continuity or no longer make any sense in the evolved version of the world the character now live in.

As for Thor being stronger than Hulk period, I think it's the worst possible thing to do ever considering the rivalry that has evolved out of their years of interaction. Stan-Lee most likely didn't anticipate how things would go, and I bet that if he knew how great the Thor/Hulk rivalry would have become he would have encourage it not kill it like you so desperately seem to want it. Doubly so since it's all Hulk has to play with figuratively speaking. Anyway, today, I don't think making Thor better than everybody under abstracts could be called "right". Even moreso if you happen to think one of the charm of Marvel use to be the lack of a clear top guy.



Your name belies an intelligence that your argument lacks, thus I will show you the error in your ways using each of your arguments.
1.)I don't know how anyone can say that by looking at the last 30 years of comics. The number of character who can and have stand up to Thor without any plot devices are numerous. What you call "cannon" isn't some stone tablet upon which laws are written. There is fluidity.

Dude, the fact that it happended and there has never been a re-write of said issue or comic means that it has been established. Fluidity means that it changes, yet that would mean that you have constant upheavals and new becomings of beings and circumstances. That's not happended. Thor is still what Marvel has made him out to be, the writers may not want to realize it but he is.
2.) Talk about living in the past. Yes, that is true, Surfer once was a far cry from what he became relatively speaking. The problem is, comics are by nature always in evolution. That it is "official", natural, or implicit, changes happens all the time. It's painfully clear surfer's place relative to Thor has evolved. Time did it's job.

Its not living in the past, its a fact. The Gods are Gods for a reason. The Silver Surfer while powerful isn't on Thor's level. There is a reason why when Thor had the Odin Force he was able to prevent Dr. Strange from getting assistance from the various SkyFathers and Cosmic Deities that he draws power from. That wasn't done by accident. That was the whole reason why Galactus wanted the World Seed. With The World Seed Galactus wanted to ensure his continued existence at the end of the known Marvel Universe, The Gods however will continue on because they have.
3.) It's also strictly the reader who chose to refuse the changes that were made over time. That too is a problem. Sure I think it's a big problem to have 13 origins and almost no continuity whatsoever. They should pick an origin and go with it for as long as they can and build upon what the previous writer did instead of retconing all they want all the time. That being said, asking for no change in origin ever is unreasonable. Characters need them from time to time whether officially, naturally or implicitly. It's not because there was no Crisis on infinite earth that changes for Thor, or other characters around Thor, aren't valid. The habit of calling something "right" because we like it more is typical among comic book fans. Some times what we like also make short work of continuity or no longer make any sense in the evolved version of the world the character now live in.
As for Thor being stronger than Hulk period, I think it's the worst possible thing to do ever considering the rivalry that has evolved out of their years of interaction. Stan-Lee most likely didn't anticipate how things would go, and I bet that if he knew how great the Thor/Hulk rivalry would have become he would have encourage it not kill it like you so desperately seem to want it. Doubly so since it's all Hulk has to play with figuratively speaking. Anyway, today, I don't think making Thor better than everybody under abstracts could be called "right". Even moreso if you happen to think one of the charm of Marvel use to be the lack of a clear top guy.

3.) An origin is just that,an Origin. Origin's don't change without you fundamentally changing the character. There is now way to argue against that.
As far as the Thor/Hulk debate. Look I'll put it this way. The Hulk is the most powerful human on the planet, but that's just it. He's human.  Thor was created to be greater than human, Thor is a God. I mean, there is no way to logically argue that the two are even on the same level. The Hulk can never measure up to what a God is. A God was not born from a mortal man/woman. Gods were created by the highest power of all. Man can never reach that level.  Thus, the Hulk can never be the equal of Thor.

 
 
 


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