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Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
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Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786
Subj: Re: Yes, I would say so
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 07:06:11 pm EST (Viewed 158 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Yes, I would say so
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 06:17:57 pm EST (Viewed 171 times)


      The Ragnarok Cycle is complicated, but I'll do my best to outline what we know. Every two thousand years or so, all the gods die in Ragnarok which feeds TWSAIS and the gods are then reborn soon afterwards. The gods seem to be literally born again to their mothers as we see several gods being born as their current versions such as Thor.

    I don't think the two thousand years timeline is relevant in modern continuity, if it was ever relevant. The Shadow Gods themselves may no longer be relevant. They could merely be parasites of the cycle, not its originators. We know that the Fates, which were originally empowered by the Shadow Gods, are no longer tied to those entities and appear to be completely different kinds of beings post-Ragnarok.

Fair enough on the two thousand year thing, but it is the only timeframe we have ever been given. Even if TWSAIS are not the creators of the cycle and are mere parasites (which could legitimately be the case), the cycle is over regardless. Thor during that final Ragnarok destroyed the thread of fate and explicitly ended the cycle. The cycle is over and if it is not over, then Thor engineered the deaths of his people for nothing.

    There's also a strong indication that the Shadow Gods were actually Beyonders; or at least that's how Odin perceived the Beyonders during that whole event.

They might be Beyonders, but they make it clear when speaking to Loki that they do not have the means of reigniting the cycle.


      The Thor that we all know and love who first appeared in Journey into Mystery #83 has never been reborn in the Ragnarok cycle. Unlike previous versions of Thor, he managed to see the Ragnarok cycle (thanks to Odin's plans) and broke the cycle forever. Any returns from death are now completely separate from Ragnarok.

    I would say Thor was reborn after Ragnarok, whether he died or not. The Thor who appeared at the beginning of the JMS run had only a portion of the Odin-Power, had both eyes, and didn't appear to have any of the mystical knowledge accrued during Ragnarok. It's been a long time since I read that run, and I never re-read it, so let me know if I missed anything.

Thor may have been reborn in JMS run or he may have just recovered during the slumber of the gods, but it doesn't really matter since the other Asgardians were explicitly killed and were reborn. Now it may sound like splitting hairs, but I think there is a big difference between rebirth and reincarnation. Reincarnation is at the heart of Ragnarok and it involves being literally born again with no memories truly maintained from previous lives. The reincarnated individuals can differ in appearance and personality with the actual ties to their previous lives being a bit relative honestly. Rebirth basically just means you come back from the dead. You may get a new body, but you are yourself for all intents and purposes with all memories and the same personality. I know its a bit arbitrary, but that's how I interpret it.


      For example, after Fear Itself, Thor returns to life by fighting hs way out of the afterlife with the same version of Thor dying, awaking, and emerging. After breaking the cycle, Thor also says that he remembers every moment of his previous lives so at this point all versions of Thor are as close to being the same as they have ever been

    The last part is not reliable, since even if Thor remembers his past life, what he remembers is not necessarily the version experienced by the 'classic Thor' (assuming for the sake of argument they are separate beings). That was kind of my point. When gods are reborn through this method, their histories are seamlessly woven into continuity, as if that version of history had always been correct. And it is not necessarily incorrect, as time and history to the World Tree are fluid.

Thor doesn't just remember a previous life, but every moment of all previous lives. It seems I missed your point in the initial post that the World Tree essentially bends reality to fit history. Are you suggesting that all the gods essentially live in the same time frame with the World Tree's help or that the World Tree moves things around to fit in the cycles? I think either interpretation may be necessary in some way to reconcile some of the continuity issues. Mjolnir's forging destroys all the dinosaurs, but Thor is shown with several fairly advanced versions of humanity in different cycles with hammer in hand. So either Thor keeps getting a new hammer forged and the writers just really like showing us how a previous version was forged or Mjolnir is from a previous cycle.