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Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786
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Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 1,051
Subj: Re: Yes, I would say so
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 at 09:13:18 am EST (Viewed 187 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Yes, I would say so
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 at 07:06:11 pm EST (Viewed 157 times)

    Fair enough on the two thousand year thing, but it is the only timeframe we have ever been given.

True, but IIRC, that story was relayed by the Eye of Odin, who very likely gave Thor a false narrative. We don't know if any aspect of that story was true.

    Even if TWSAIS are not the creators of the cycle and are mere parasites (which could legitimately be the case), the cycle is over regardless. Thor during that final Ragnarok destroyed the thread of fate and explicitly ended the cycle. The cycle is over and if it is not over, then Thor engineered the deaths of his people for nothing.

We don't really know if the cycle is over, or if merely the parasitic nature of has been expunged. In order for the cycle to truly be over, beings like Surtur would have to give up their modus operandi, wouldn't they?

    They might be Beyonders, but they make it clear when speaking to Loki that they do not have the means of reigniting the cycle.

I'll have to re-read that, the end of the Loki story fell off my radar.

    Thor may have been reborn in JMS run or he may have just recovered during the slumber of the gods, but it doesn't really matter since the other Asgardians were explicitly killed and were reborn. Now it may sound like splitting hairs, but I think there is a big difference between rebirth and reincarnation.

I agree that there is a difference between resurrection (which I think Thor has done several times) and reincarnation.

    Reincarnation is at the heart of Ragnarok and it involves being literally born again with no memories truly maintained from previous lives. The reincarnated individuals can differ in appearance and personality with the actual ties to their previous lives being a bit relative honestly. Rebirth basically just means you come back from the dead. You may get a new body, but you are yourself for all intents and purposes with all memories and the same personality. I know its a bit arbitrary, but that's how I interpret it.

I think this is where we diverge, and I think you may be referencing non-canon or semi-canonical events. Lets say for the sake of the argument that there is no timeline, that the gods have gone through Ragnarok countless times and have been reborn to feed the Shadow Gods. The alternative is really hard to follow, because it overlaps mortal history. If your version is correct, haven't the Shadow Gods only eaten once or twice?

The alternative is explanation, which I prefer, is that Ragnarok keeps happening, and a variant of history overlaps (and replaces) the previous one. Hence countless versions of Thor can appear throughout viking history, without any real continuity issues. In which case the Ragnarok Cycle could have happened dozens, hundreds, even millions of times. There is no limit. However, as the Odin-Force said, each cycle in some way diminishes the gods. Almost like a battery that keeps recharging.

    Thor doesn't just remember a previous life, but every moment of all previous lives. It seems I missed your point in the initial post that the World Tree essentially bends reality to fit history. Are you suggesting that all the gods essentially live in the same time frame with the World Tree's help or that the World Tree moves things around to fit in the cycles?

Basically. I see no other viable explanation that would allow Thor, Odin, etc. to be viking gods, which is really not that long ago on a cosmological scale. Also keep in mind that some versions of Odin are billions of years old. Fraction's Odin is about as old as Galactus, and the Asgardians of that run originate from another universe (Odin and Cul's generation). In addition, that version of Odin and Cul waged a war that literally razed Earth (former Aesheim, IIRC). In addition, this version of Odin sacrificed himself on the World Tree (and lost an eye) as a boy.

    I think either interpretation may be necessary in some way to reconcile some of the continuity issues. Mjolnir's forging destroys all the dinosaurs, but Thor is shown with several fairly advanced versions of humanity in different cycles with hammer in hand. So either Thor keeps getting a new hammer forged and the writers just really like showing us how a previous version was forged or Mjolnir is from a previous cycle.

Exactly. I think some variant of this explanation is not just likely, but 100% necessary.

By the way, check out the following stories for further development of this theory:

- Ultraforce/Avengers (we see variants of Loki and Thor spill into universe via the Infinity Gems; IIRC the death of Loki causes a fracture in this timeline. The attack on Nemesis shows like a dozen variants of Mjolnir striking her.)
- Thor: God-Sized Annual #1 (Amora's attack on the World Tree causes shifting memories of Skurge, even to Hela)
- Thor v1 ~#500 or and surrounding issues (Odin uses a sword with some connection to Yggdrasil to merge mortal identities for the Asgardians into history)
- Karnilla / Tanaraus issues of Fraction's run (Karnilla uses Fate-magic and numerous reagents to replace Thor with Ulik in mortal history, during Thor's post-Fear Itself death; the effect being reversed upon Thor's resurrection)

- There may be one or two Aaron issues which delve into this as well, involving the Fates.