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Post By
Late Great Donald Blake
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,414
In Reply To
Norvell

Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786
Subj: There are plenty of places to go from here.
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 at 04:32:39 pm CST (Viewed 100 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Yeah there's a lot of "not argument" going around lol
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 at 02:37:34 pm CST (Viewed 90 times)

Previous Post


    Quote:
    LGDB: so your point here is that not only are the comics bad, but that anyone that likes them is unemployed or dumb? Yeah can't imagine why anyone would take issue with that.


No, I’m saying comics are an expensive hobby and the brain doesn’t fully develop until around age 25. Thus, the target demographic is someone making well above minimum wage and probably 30+ range in age.


    Quote:
    LGDB: well that wasn't a "counter argument." And in fact I can't really provide a counter argument when there isn't an argument on offer to counter.


My argument was that the decline in quality coincides with an increase in negativity. That’s an actual argument, and there’s a clear correlation.


    Quote:
    Generally you don't really make arguments. You sort of just make demands. You demand that it be given that these comics are bad and then when questioned all your evidence is grounded in subjective feelings, and then you hide behind well it's just my opinion.


When have I made any such demands? Quote me. As we previously established, I only have authority over my opinion. Did you forget our previous discussion or is this selective amnesia?


    Quote:
    You're entitled to it but that's not an argument, to counter or otherwise.


I think that Aaron and Cates are terrible writers. Your opinion to the contrary is also your opinion. Where does that leave us?



No, I’m saying comics are an expensive hobby and the brain doesn’t fully develop until around age 25. Thus, the target demographic is someone making well above minimum wage and probably 30+ range in age.


LGDB: So you think Marvel's target demographic is above 35? And what does this have to do with anything. The implication still seems to be that people making well above minimum wage or are in their 30's range in age wouldn't like the new comics. I'm not sure that's true generally. My point wasn't that people above a certain age do or don't like new comics. Or even that most older people feel the way many on this board do. I'm only suggesting that there is a kind of bitterness associated with some older people where they're inclined to resent new art and to overly lionize earlier stuff... and I think that explains a lot of this board's collective opinion. I think you have a sort of myth making where things back in the old days were a golden era and I don't think that's bore out by the history. In other words there's a general trend of not liking new comics here, and it's as likely (if not more likely) to be due to the bitterness of certain readers (who are getting older) than it does a dip in quality.



My argument was that the decline in quality coincides with an increase in negativity. That’s an actual argument, and there’s a clear correlation

LGDB: This properly speaking isn't an argument. It's an unsubstantiated claim. An argument is when you warrant your conclusion with premises (usually that are established in some say such that they're not as questionable or more questionable than the conclusion) or try to establish it with various kinds of evidence. And the underlying assumption that you haven't presented any kind of argument for here that I was referring was that there's been an ACTUAL dip in quality in Thor comics.

And it's not a clear correlation. For one, you're looking at a relatively small, self selecting sample size of vocal posters, who of course think that their negative feeling correlate to the writing being bad... as opposed to it being writing that (for a myriad of reasons) they don't personally enjoy. So in other words you haven't established that it's actually the case that most Thor fans (let's say) or comic fans don't like the new Thor comics, much less that the reasons most that don't like them is because they're poorly written.



When have I made any such demands? Quote me. As we previously established, I only have authority over my opinion. Did you forget our previous discussion or is this selective amnesia?




LGDB: You're mistaking my meaning. By demand I mean, you're claiming something to be true (that new Thor comics are poorly written) without an argument for such a claim. (i.e. you demand that it is true) And most importantly here... Just claiming "it's just my opinion" isn't some get out of jail free card, believe it or not, when making a criticism. It's ASSUMED that your opinion is just your opinion. The question is whether or not that opinion corresponds to anything in the world outside of your head. You've said that there's a dip in quality in the comics, it's to be assumed that you mean something different than "there's been a dip the quality of how I feel about Thor comics." I mean obviously you'd have to mean that because you're referring to the opinions of people outside of yourself.

This is what I meant when I said you don't have an argument, at least not one that I've seen presented, unless your argument is "new Thor comics are bad, because that's my opinion."

And I remember that our previous discussion ended because I had other work to do and that it ended unresolved lol

Again, what's you argument that new Thor comics are poorly written? What do you take to be the strongest evidence for that? What's the best evidence?





I think that Aaron and Cates are terrible writers. Your opinion to the contrary is also your opinion. Where does that leave us?


LGDB: You know, believe or not art criticism (literary criticism here) is a fairly well established field, and there are libraries filled with many books on it, and those books aren't only filled with people who make grandiose claims, and then rely on the trump of card, "it's just my opinion, how on earth could we proceed?"

You think the art is bad, I think the art is good, where does that leave us? Well one way might be to evaluate each other's premises, you know to see if the claims we're making are coherent or warranted by the evidence we say warrant them. So for instance, I'm asking you what criteria of judgment are you using to say these new Thor comics are bad. And then what examples do you have that establishes that they don't meet said criteria. And then I (or others) could question whether those criteria are fair and reasonable, and that the examples correspond to them or that they are consistent. That's at least an orderly, relatively well established way of organizing a debate over literary criticism. I'm open to suggestion if you've got a better way. But I think just saying "This sucks because I don't like it" or "This sucks for some arbitrary reason that applies to me personally but not necessarily" seems like a really crappy system.


cheers,
---the late great Donald Blake






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