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Post By
Norvell

Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786
In Reply To
Late Great Donald Blake
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,358
Subj: Re: There are plenty of places to go from here.
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 at 06:24:05 pm EST (Viewed 73 times)
Reply Subj: There are plenty of places to go from here.
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 at 05:32:39 pm EST (Viewed 92 times)



    Quote:

    LGDB: So you think Marvel's target demographic is above 35? And what does this have to do with anything.

You're the one who suggested that the criticism was due to the age of the critics. What empirical data are you basing that on?


    Quote:
    Or even that most older people feel the way many on this board do. I'm only suggesting that there is a kind of bitterness associated with some older people where they're inclined to resent new art and to overly lionize earlier stuff... and I think that explains a lot of this board's collective opinion.

And yet I thought Fraction and Gillen (especially Gillen) did a reasonably good to fantastic job. And before that, Oeming did a good job. How long ago was that? Centuries?

 
    Quote:
    I think you have a sort of myth making where things back in the old days were a golden era and I don't think that's bore out by the history.

I think you're making an assumption based on literally nothing.


    Quote:
    LGDB: This properly speaking isn't an argument. It's an unsubstantiated claim.

I would say its a statement of fact. Whether the correlation equates to causation is worth examining.


    Quote:
    And the underlying assumption that you haven't presented any kind of argument for here that I was referring was that there's been an ACTUAL dip in quality in Thor comics.

Well, you claimed that the reason for negativity is due to readers 'aging out of comics', which I think I've now thoroughly debunked. Which makes my claim stronger, especially since there's definite correlation.


    Quote:

    When have I made any such demands? Quote me. As we previously established, I only have authority over my opinion. Did you forget our previous discussion or is this selective amnesia?



    Quote:

    LGDB: You're mistaking my meaning. By demand I mean, you're claiming something to be true (that new Thor comics are poorly written) without an argument for such a claim.

This is the worst kind of nitpicking. Every time someone speaks they're coming from a subjective viewpoint. Should I put an asterisk and disclaimer beside everything I say because you have trouble understanding how language is used?


    Quote:
    This is what I meant when I said you don't have an argument, at least not one that I've seen presented, unless your argument is "new Thor comics are bad, because that's my opinion."

I've stated repeatedly what my issues with current writing are, and my conclusion is that its a result of bad writing. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.


    Quote:
    Again, what's you argument that new Thor comics are poorly written?

Wild inconsistencies (even from the same writer), over-reliance on gimmicks, nonsensical plot resolutions, nonsensical displays of power, building up of threats that fizzle out and go nowhere, but at the same time utterly undermine other characters who serve as the foundation of the Marvel Universes (e.g. Galactus). Just off the top of my head.

I've had these issues with Cates before he started writing THOR, by the way. His Thanos series was abysmal.


    Quote:

    LGDB: You know, believe or not art criticism (literary criticism here) is a fairly well established field, and there are libraries filled with many books on it, and those books aren't only filled with people who make grandiose claims, and then rely on the trump of card, "it's just my opinion, how on earth could we proceed?"

Did you know that I was among this board's biggest Aaron defenders, until I could no longer stomach his garbage?


    Quote:
    You think the art is bad, I think the art is good, where does that leave us? Well one way might be to evaluate each other's premises, you know to see if the claims we're making are coherent or warranted by the evidence we say warrant them.

Spoken like someone with an entitlement complex.


    Quote:
    So for instance, I'm asking you what criteria of judgment are you using to say these new Thor comics are bad. And then what examples do you have that establishes that they don't meet said criteria.

Example: Donald Blake being driven to madness by the machinations of the gods, resulting in him nearly taking down the gods. The conclusion is Thor seeking the advice of Loki; ultimately giving Blake to Loki, who went on to subject Blake to cosmic torture. Because now Blake is the God of Lies or something.

On what planet is that good writing?


    Quote:
    And then I (or others) could question whether those criteria are fair and reasonable, and that the examples correspond to them or that they are consistent.

This isn't a court room, and you're not qualified to be the judge or the jury. Are you?

Also, if you missed my past essay-reviews detailing my issues with Cates and Aaron, that's actually your problem, not mine.



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