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Post By
Immodicus

Member Since: Wed Jun 24, 2020
In Reply To
Visitor

Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 2,898
Subj: Re: If I respond to your inquiry right now I'll probably mysteriously vanish (be BANNED) before we can finish our discussion.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 at 08:58:49 am EST (Viewed 250 times)
Reply Subj: Re: If I respond to your inquiry right now I'll probably mysteriously vanish (be BANNED) before we can finish our discussion.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 at 05:20:00 pm EST (Viewed 224 times)



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    See? Odin never had any motivation to kill it which is why he entrapped it in the first place. And we may both be right. Once the Storm was defeated and could no longer defend itself, Odin had two choices, either attempt to entrap it or kill it.


Odin fought the Storm because it came to Asgard, it wasn't like Odin sought the Storm out to entrap it and add it to his arsenal.

The whole deal read like a series of happy accidents.

-The Dwarves deliver a chunk of unrefined Uru to Odin who scoffs at and belittles their gift
-Later the Storm approaches Asgard and Odin battles it it for days and eventually has the idea to use said chunk of Uru to trap it.
-The story even tells us Odin gets the idea for forging this chunk of Uru into a weapon as soon as the battle was over and not before.

Aaron wasn't framing this as some master plan by Odin to trap the Mother Storm.


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    There was no indication the Storm ever had that advantage over Odin throughout the entire days/weeks fight.


I have never suggested otherwise, the story tells us they were in a stalemate for days.


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      Another time when Odin tried to lift Mjolnir (when it was still in Asgard's armory) Odin directly blamed the Mother Storm for his inability to lift it.



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    Yes, no dispute there.



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      Likewise I think you can do better as well.
      I would envision your theoretical physical manifestation of the Mother Storm to be equally battered, since they were in a days long dead lock -- as apparent equals.



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    Until the Mother Storm grew weakened and tired. Apparently Odin wasn't as weakened to be able to imprison the Storm right?


The story and art shows and tells us Odin was battered and tired as well.

I don't know if you've ever participated in any type of combat sports but it's a common tactic to absorb punishment (with proper defense) to gas your opponent then rally a well timed offense.
Rope-a-dope in boxing, kings-move in arm-wrestling, etc.

We see physically less powerful people win pretty frequently via superior energy management and timing.
Just for clarification, I'm not arguing Odin is less powerful.
I realize this is comics and not real world combat sports but what Aaron wrote honestly read as though Odin won through superior fight IQ (timing) and I think that IS what he actually intended.

I don't think feminist Aaron would write the patriarchy as inherently more powerful than the matriarchy; more guileful absolutely.


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      It would have been shown battered and gassed just as Odin was, minus the McGuffin that allowed Odin to pull out a last ditch entrapment.



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    No it was more battered and weakened to the point it couldn't defend itself any longer. Odin still had to use his own power to imprison the Tempest into the Uru right?


Correction, the Mother Storm couldn't defend itself from Odin's attack compounded with magically absorptive Uru.

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I'm going to take a sort of a parallel detour here:

Do you watch Dragon Ball? Have you heard of the Mafuba technique?

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDw4mtKxivo

Would you say Frost was more powerful than Vegeta there?











Frost is actually far less powerful than Vegeta as evidenced earlier here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140UhCpMuro
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This Mother Storm trapped in Mjolnir deal, like the Mufuba jar in Dragon Ball, is kind of a riff on the genie in the bottle theme and historically in many works of fiction it hasn't always required superior power to entrap something in an object.

Magical entrapment is a trope often used as a plot device to eliminate a threat you can't otherwise defeat of kill.

See Merlin/Morgan Le Fay trapping Chthon in Wundagore Mountain or Mephisto binding Zarathos to mortals for a couple Marvel examples of many.


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      Highly questionable.
      Take the Uru away and could have Odin subdued the Mother Storm with his own power? Nothing in the scene suggests that to be the case.
      We see that through an expression of Odin's full power compounded with a block of Uru Odin was able to entrap a formless entity into a metal that is renowned for it's unique ability to absorb and retain magical energies.
      We are then told even Odin himself isn't sure of the magics he used to pull it off.



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    Which is fine. He wasn't sure doesn't matter because it was a tactic he used that was successful. It was through a combo of using the resources he wielded with strategy and outlasted his opponent to do so.


I'm not debating Odin won, I am debating the assertion that Odin displayed clearly superior power through his victory.


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    It appears his goal was to use the Power of the Storm to add to his other assets he had.



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    You say it's questionable he could have defeated the Storm under his own power, it's also questionable he could have slain the Storm after it blew itself out and could no longer defend itself.


Yes, and like I've maintained it's debatable as the story was extremely light on details.
I don't know if Odin could have defeated the Storm without the Uru, all I know is that he didn't and the story gave no indications that he was going to break their stalemate without it.


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      Is that one interpretation? Sure. But the story absolutely left it open enough to invite reasonable debate on the matter.



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    Of course, why we are debating it here. After I read your first post on the matter I wanted to bring my perspective for your consideration.


The only thing I am debating is that Odin conclusively proved his power was superior to the Mother Storm's.
Odin broke a days long stalemate via timing and a McGuffin so I don't see this example as a cut and dry example of victory through superior personal power.

This all came about because I said I saw Odin and the Mother Storm as relative equals and you stated Odin proved himself superior.
I didn't see it that way.


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      As the High Librarian of the Hall of the Unknowing said, the Mother Storm went inactive (incorrectly assumed dead) after millennia of entrapment in Uru.
      In Aaron's continuity Odin never subdued the Mother Storm...it gave up due to it's long term imprisonment in Uru.



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    It's a matter of perspective here. Perhaps a combination of both. And if it gave up due to it's long imprisonment after Odin put it there, didn't Odin in effect subdue it?


The way I see it? Odin trapped it and the trauma of eons of imprisonment in Uru eventually broke its spirit ... until Jane came around.
Aaron went out of his way to show and tell us Odin himself wasn't capable of bringing the Mother Storm to heel and was embarrassed by that fact.
Remember Aaron told us Odin forbid Asgardians from even speaking of his first attempt to wield Mjolnir.


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      Then how do you interpret it?
      How do you interpret the above quote?



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    I just did above.


The quote I was referring to here was regarding Odin trapping the Mother Storm in Uru and being unsure of what dark magics he even used to manage it.

The conversation was:

Me -- "What’s telling to me is that Aaron portrayed Odin as not fully understanding how he even accomplished the feat and utterly powerless to control the newly forged Mjolnir because of the Mother Storm's power and influence.
Even when Aaron gave Odin a W he couldn’t resist tearing him down later in the very same issue."

You -- "I'll have to re-read that issue but I didn't get that sentiment at all. Odin was fully in control of the situation when he accomplished the feat."

I posted the the quote here -- "The All-Father had trapped the Storm inside the Uru. Through what dark and primal magic, even he could not say." - Lord High Librarian of the Halls of the All-Knowing

You -- "That's to you, I interpret the events quite differently."

Me -- "Then how do you interpret it? How do you interpret the above quote?"

You -- "I just did above."

The point I was making is that Aaron; IMHO, wasn't portraying Odin as confidently meeting objectives there but rather saying he sort of lucked out that it played out like he did. Odin-diminishing....

If I'm Aaron and I want to communicate Odin was fully in control of the situation without those Odin-diminishing undertones I would write something like this:

"The All-Father had trapped the Storm inside the Uru. Through dark and primal magics never before seen." - Lord High Librarian of the Halls of the All-Knowing

Aaron's quote subtly implies to the reader Odin was actually kind of confused as to how he managed it.
This type of thing is really a constant in Aaron's Odin portrayals.


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          Right, this is why I see it as a retcon designed to diminish Odin.

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          I don't see it that way at all.



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    And you could be right or wrong. I'm just bringing my insight to the table.


Agree to disagree


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          The enchantment rendered the hammer unable to be wielded by most. But as we saw the Mother Storm was able to either overpower or hijack those enchantments.

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          Yes over time after being incapacitated for centuries or perhaps Mjolnir was exposed to something in battle that gave it strength to wake up and overcome the enchantments.

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            Or perhaps the unending events of Ragnarok became a factor, we just don't know. I will blame Aaron for the numerous unresolved plot holes he created.

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        No prize explanations? I think perhaps you should just accept that Marvel canon is utterly broken at this point.



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    No disagreement as I stated Aaron created all of this with Lazy writing.



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      And yet you jump through hoops defending Aaron's choices as we've just seen. Color me confused.



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    No, you misunderstand me. I previously wrote Aaron fell short of maintaining continuity. What I was doing was trying to fill in the gaps via logic as a means to state the whole story (a great explanation he could have told).


I see, at this point I would just like to Marvel reboot the entire Marvel Universe with a strong, continuity aware editorial team and writers that want to tell compelling stories instead of ones that peddle shock value and political agenda.
To me Aaron and Cates are actually the poster boys for everything wrong with modern comics.


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      I see it as disparate canon, Aaron's own attempt for that No Prize is that the Mother Storm just gave up after years of entrapment and was actually assumed dead by all.
      What's clear is that Odin never used his "superior power" to subdue the Mother Storm.



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    Resources at your command are not considered part of your power base?


I personally take it case by case.

Are we talking about inherent personal power or your overall power base?

If we are comparing inherent personal power and weapons are included I then ask myself are those resources actual manifestations or extensions of someone's personal power (ex: Galactus tech, Celestial tech, Silver Surfer's board, etc.) or something completely external to their natural power-set (ex: Reed Richards's inventions, Iron Man's armor).

Do most people consider Reed Richards more powerful than Thor or the Silver Surfer despite the fact that through his inventions he can potentially be just as great a threat as they are?

(Muddier examples would be people bound to objects of power: Green Lantern and their rings, Quasar and the Quantum Bands, etc.
While Hal and Wendell are physically normal humans they have special connections to those objects so I see those objects as effectively extensions of their beings.)

Regardless, I didn't see that chunk of Uru as an extension of Odin's power. Among his resources? Sure. But not an aspect or extension of his personal power. I see a distinction...

Historically I've always viewed Mjolnir as an extension of both Odin's power (enchantments) and Thor's power (attacks).

After Aaron's Mother Storm retcon I see Mjolnir as an expression of the Mother Storm's power and neither Thor nor Odin's.


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      Pretty much disproven in Thor #12 by the High Librarian of the Halls of the All-Knowing.

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        Jane Foster, "So...it IS alive?"

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          Librarian, "Perhaps it was once. But that was countless eons ago. Not even the greatest of storms could survive that long trapped in Uru."

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            Jane Foster, "But it SPOKE to me..."

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              Aaron is clearly indicating the Mother Storm was assumed to have died and but really just went inactive yet something about Jane woke it up. Girl-power I assume...



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    Yes, what I stated before as an explanation as to why Odin could lift Mjolnir throughout the ages. Thanks for posting that, totally in alignment as to what I stated. Give Aaron credit for that as well.


Yes, that was his explanation.
My point is that Odin didn't ever manage to bring the Mother Storm to heel rather she/it just gave up after being imprisoned for so long.


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      The Mother Storm woke up again and prevented Odin but overcoming his own enchantment on the Moon and helped Jane Foster humble him.



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    Yes, Aaron did make scapegoats out of both Thor and Odin throughout his run to hype his girl power puff creation Jane Foster. I just don't think the battle between Odin and The Storm was one of them.


Well, the result of the Odin/Mother Storm battle was dictated by plot necessity.
If the Mother Storm won it wouldn't have been trapped in the Uru.

IMO, Aaron used that fight in particular as an indictment of the patriarchy.
The patriarchy replaces the matriarchy and after a few thousand years of oppression it begins to rise up in modern times.
In current times, the matriarchy humbles the patriarchy signaling post-modern feminism.
I genuinely believe that was Aaron's larger message with this fight.

Mother Storm = the matriarchy
Jane Foster = post-modern feminism

Irrelevant to canon I know...


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      But he didn't; IMO, because he is lazy and doesn't fully consider the repercussions of his choices. Neither has Cates thus far. Cates is even worse in this respect, IMO.



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    There were a lot of plot holes for sure but as you quoted, (and I had forgotten), the explanation as to why the Storm became inactive seems to be clear right?


Yeah, female repression...


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      I thought so until Cates revealed the God of Hammer to be a woman, presumably the Mother Storm unleashed.



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    But if I recall correctly, wasn't the Storm already established as female by Aaron during his run?


Yes...my point is that is that Cates is doubling down on it as opposed to be glossing it over or even retconning it (as it should be).

If Cates does clean this up I will admit I was wrong but Cates has never given me a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.





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