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Subj: Re: If I respond to your inquiry right now I'll probably mysteriously vanish (be BANNED) before we can finish our discussion.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 at 09:10:50 pm EST (Viewed 260 times)
Reply Subj: Re: If I respond to your inquiry right now I'll probably mysteriously vanish (be BANNED) before we can finish our discussion.
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 at 08:58:49 am EST (Viewed 250 times)
Yes I know this.
Quote:Odin fought the Storm because it came to Asgard, it wasn't like Odin sought the Storm out to entrap it and add it to his arsenal.
Quote:The whole deal read like a series of happy accidents.
Quote:-The Dwarves deliver a chunk of unrefined Uru to Odin who scoffs at and belittles their gift
-Later the Storm approaches Asgard and Odin battles it it for days and eventually has the idea to use said chunk of Uru to trap it.
-The story even tells us Odin gets the idea for forging this chunk of Uru into a weapon as soon as the battle was over and not before.
Quote:Aaron wasn't framing this as some master plan by Odin to trap the Mother Storm.
Which makes Odin look even more masterful in thinking on his feet to turn a series of "accidents" as you state, into a major victory in saving the entire realm of Asgard from a very powerful enemy.
Quote:I have never suggested otherwise, the story tells us they were in a stalemate for days.
Quote:The story and art shows and tells us Odin was battered and tired as well.
Quote:I don't know if you've ever participated in any type of combat sports but it's a common tactic to absorb punishment (with proper defense) to gas your opponent then rally a well timed offense.
Rope-a-dope in boxing, kings-move in arm-wrestling, etc.
I almost used the same analogy earlier in my discussion using Ali as the primary example.
Quote:We see physically less powerful people win pretty frequently via superior energy management and timing.
Just for clarification, I'm not arguing Odin is less powerful.
I realize this is comics and not real world combat sports but what Aaron wrote honestly read as though Odin won through superior fight IQ (timing) and I think that IS what he actually intended.
I wouldn't disagree to this explanation.
Quote:I don't think feminist Aaron would write the patriarchy as inherently more powerful than the matriarchy; more guileful absolutely.
We are again on the same page.
Quote:Correction, the Mother Storm couldn't defend itself from Odin's attack compounded with magically absorptive Uru.
And the shrewd Odin, being the forward thinking planner that he is, wanted to acquire the tempest's energy to increase his power base, not destroy it. Yes, I agree he gambled to do it, but the gamble could have been to make imprisonment a substantial gain, then kill the entity if it fails.
He probably knew the first choice was all upside in his favor if his prediction paid off. If not, he didn't have anything else to lose by eliminating the tempest.
I'm going to take a sort of a parallel detour here:
I'm with you here.
Quote:Do you watch Dragon Ball? Have you heard of the Mafuba technique?
I've heard of it. I believe my son plays the video game.
Quote:Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDw4mtKxivo
It appears but I know nothing about these characters.
Quote:Would you say Frost was more powerful than Vegeta there?
Quote:Frost is actually far less powerful than Vegeta as evidenced earlier here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140UhCpMuro
Quote:This Mother Storm trapped in Mjolnir deal, like the Mufuba jar in Dragon Ball, is kind of a riff on the genie in the bottle theme and historically in many works of fiction it hasn't always required superior power to entrap something in an object.
Of course. The entrapment itself is more powerful and/or the being who sets the entrapment has within his arsenal the Achilles Heel of the opponent to set the trap.
In other words Vegeta battling Frost ***ONE-ON-ONE***is more powerful but because the latter has the resource(s) to attack an Achilles Heel of Vegeta, does that give him superior power from an overall viewpoint?
To clarify, Superman is leaps and bounds (get it?) more powerful than Batman but because Bats has traditionally attacked Superman weaknesses does that give him superior edge in power (at that very moment he has the advantage) even though he's overall less powerful?
Quote:Magical entrapment is a trope often used as a plot device to eliminate a threat you can't otherwise defeat of kill.
I agree that it can be, but not always now. Magical entrapment can be used to as a plot device to defeat and kill as well.
Quote:See Merlin/Morgan Le Fay trapping Chthon in Wundagore Mountain or Mephisto binding Zarathos to mortals for a couple Marvel examples of many.
But it's not ALWAYS the rule is it?
Quote:I'm not debating Odin won, I am debating the assertion that Odin displayed clearly superior power through his victory.
We both are. However it goes deeper than that. You asserted Aaron degraded/belittled Odin in that particular fight and I disagreed.
Quote:Yes, and like I've maintained it's debatable as the story was extremely light on details.
I don't know if Odin could have defeated the Storm without the Uru, all I know is that he didn't and the story gave no indications that he was going to break their stalemate without it.
My understanding is the Storm blew itself out (became tired and weak). At that point, because it didn't say Odin equally became as tired and weak as the Tempest Odin had the clear advantage. However, as I stated previously in my post, Odin wanted the power to use against future enemies so he gambled to entrap the Storm and his gamble paid off!
Even later when Odin was asked should we kill it? Implies he had the power to do so, but chose not to, because he wanted to use it's energy for his own benefit.
Quote:The only thing I am debating is that Odin conclusively proved his power was superior to the Mother Storm's.
Odin broke a days long stalemate via timing and a McGuffin so I don't see this example as a cut and dry example of victory through superior personal power.
We can agree to that no problem good Sir.
Quote:This all came about because I said I saw Odin and the Mother Storm as relative equals and you stated Odin proved himself superior.
I didn't see it that way.
I still see it that way as I explained above in this text. But I can also agree it's not definitive due to your explanation side.
Quote:The way I see it? Odin trapped it and the trauma of eons of imprisonment in Uru eventually broke its spirit ... until Jane came around.
Aaron went out of his way to show and tell us Odin himself wasn't capable of bringing the Mother Storm to heel and was embarrassed by that fact.
Remember Aaron told us Odin forbid Asgardians from even speaking of his first attempt to wield Mjolnir.
Yes Odin is very prideful but keep in mind as I stated before, he was given the option to kill the Storm. And if we can reconcile Aaron's story to Thor cannon, he did subdue the storm as witnessed by us readers of him wielding the hammer in the future.
We can argue if he knew this would happen over time by using the enchantments or perhaps in the future after he used them, he could figure something else out. But again, the definition of subdue is partial in my opinion. The Storm could not be FULLY controlled, but it was controlled to the point it had been rendered powerless.
Quote:The quote I was referring to here was regarding Odin trapping the Mother Storm in Uru and being unsure of what dark magics he even used to manage it.
Yes, and does this not happen to many participants in battle? Pulling something out of their quiver arsenal and not knowing if it's going to work? In this case IMHO Odin did this mainly (and I can agree to questionably in your case) to capture it's power.
Quote:Me -- "What’s telling to me is that Aaron portrayed Odin as not fully understanding how he even accomplished the feat and utterly powerless to control the newly forged Mjolnir because of the Mother Storm's power and influence.
Even when Aaron gave Odin a W he couldn’t resist tearing him down later in the very same issue."
I'm not sure if I can agree with the tearing down part. In other words Aaron ERRORED because later in cannon Odin had full control of the hammer with the Storm entrapped within it.
Quote:You -- "I'll have to re-read that issue but I didn't get that sentiment at all. Odin was fully in control of the situation when he accomplished the feat."
Yes. But again I can see your side of it being questionable.
Quote:I posted the the quote here -- "The All-Father had trapped the Storm inside the Uru. Through what dark and primal magic, even he could not say." - Lord High Librarian of the Halls of the All-Knowing
Correct but he had the knowledge, resources, and primal magic power to to see if his gamble of entrapping the Storm to add to his power base. The Uru was part of his power base.
Quote:The point I was making is that Aaron; IMHO, wasn't portraying Odin as confidently meeting objectives there but rather saying he sort of lucked out that it played out like he did. Odin-diminishing....
Luck is something that is brought by chance rather through one's own actions. Odin brought about victory by understanding how to use his resources at hand (even if it was a gamble) to defeat the Storm.
Quote:Aaron's quote subtly implies to the reader Odin was actually kind of confused as to how he managed it.
This type of thing is really a constant in Aaron's Odin portrayals.
Quote:Agree to disagree
And that's perfectly fine.
Quote:I personally take it case by case.
Yes it's subject to opinion. There are no definitive cases that apply to all scenarios.
Quote:If we are comparing inherent personal power and weapons are included I then ask myself are those resources actual manifestations or extensions of someone's personal power (ex: Galactus tech, Celestial tech, Silver Surfer's board, etc.) or something completely external to their natural power-set (ex: Reed Richards's inventions, Iron Man's armor).
Quote:Do most people consider Reed Richards more powerful than Thor or the Silver Surfer despite the fact that through his inventions he can potentially be just as great a threat as they are?
Still reading how you feel about this...
Quote:(Muddier examples would be people bound to objects of power: Green Lantern and their rings, Quasar and the Quantum Bands, etc.
While Hal and Wendell are physically normal humans they have special connections to those objects so I see those objects as effectively extensions of their beings.)
Quote:Regardless, I didn't see that chunk of Uru as an extension of Odin's power. Among his resources? Sure. But not an aspect or extension of his personal power. I see a distinction...
Quote:Historically I've always viewed Mjolnir as an extension of both Odin's power (enchantments) and Thor's power (attacks).
Still with you...
Quote:After Aaron's Mother Storm retcon I see Mjolnir as an expression of the Mother Storm's power and neither Thor nor Odin's.
Quote:Yes, that was his explanation.
My point is that Odin didn't ever manage to bring the Mother Storm to heel rather she/it just gave up after being imprisoned for so long.
But keeping the Mother Storm imprisoned when it became powerless in effect making it give up over time and Odin being able to wield the hammer later did bring the Storm to Heel.
Now I'll agree it didn't appear that Odin predicted that would happen though.
Quote:Well, the result of the Odin/Mother Storm battle was dictated by plot necessity.
If the Mother Storm won it wouldn't have been trapped in the Uru.
IMO, Aaron used that fight in particular as an indictment of the patriarchy.
The patriarchy replaces the matriarchy and after a few thousand years of oppression it begins to rise up in modern times.
In current times, the matriarchy humbles the patriarchy signaling post-modern feminism.
I genuinely believe that was Aaron's larger message with this fight.
Yeah can't disagree there but remember it started with Fraction before Aaron.
Quote:Yes...my point is that is that Cates is doubling down on it as opposed to be glossing it over or even retconning it (as it should be).
How can you double down when it was initially identified as the Mother Storm?
I agree with your latter analysis. "as opposed to be glossing it over or even retconning it (as it should be)."
Quote:If Cates does clean this up I will admit I was wrong but Cates has never given me a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.
And I don't blame you at all, but again, let's see what happens before we throw him completely under the bus.
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